nice post!
To spin or not to spin?
- Thread starter Kevin3824
- Start date
nice post!
Maybe I wasn't clear as pros keep getting mentioned and I know of very few here that are of a pro level of play. Pros can and do things that a vast majority of us can't and will never be able to do, so saying how much they do it and comparing your game to theirs is just silly (in a vast majority of cases).
As I mentioned before I am not against spin, but I do believe it is way over used by way too many people that do not have the skill or knowledge to use it. Those same people are decent players but are also the ones sitting there wondering why they can't control the cue ball or why they are missing shots when they go play at different venues.
I am of the mindset that as you begin to play you should avoid it and learn where the cue ball is going naturally off object ball and the rail. Once it hits the rail there are so many more variables when spin is introduced that you won't find consistency very easy or quickly, especially if you are shooting on different tables all the time being that it effects not only in how the ball reacts off the rail, but how the object ball reacts off of the cue ball that is spinning. If you miss a shot or a leave, you need to know why. Was it because you put unintentional spin or was it simply because your aim was off or was it because you simply didn't know where the cue was headed after it struck the object ball?
All of us have been at a stage in our game that we just needed to concentrate on making a ball and gave little to no thought to our next one. As we progressed, we started thinking about trying to get to another one. Not any specific ball, just one of ours. Then we started thinking 1, 2, 3 balls out, then eventually a run out. During that progression is when we start trying to control the cue ball more and more but too many people start too early trying to use spin to do it instead of natural roll. I truly believes it holds them back and lengthens the amount of time for them to actually progress in the phase because of all the additional variables that one little act introduces. Tor Lowry has a great drill for this.
Every shot taken we analyze. One analysis should be whether or not you must you spin the cue ball to get it where you need it for the next shot. If you don't need, then don't introduce variables into the shot that do not need to be there. Would you jump, kick or bank a ball that doesn't need to be jumped, kicked or banked just because it may give you a 5% better leave with the cue ball?
I think even many of you "spin masters" don't have nearly the control you think you do with spin, especially when you go to different equipment. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular so don't get the egos out to tell all of us how great you are with spin and how you can put a sharpie dot on a table and put the cue ball on it after 5 rails so everyone should use it as much as they can until they reach your level. That is simply poor advise in general.
As I mentioned before I am not against spin, but I do believe it is way over used by way too many people that do not have the skill or knowledge to use it. Those same people are decent players but are also the ones sitting there wondering why they can't control the cue ball or why they are missing shots when they go play at different venues.
I am of the mindset that as you begin to play you should avoid it and learn where the cue ball is going naturally off object ball and the rail. Once it hits the rail there are so many more variables when spin is introduced that you won't find consistency very easy or quickly, especially if you are shooting on different tables all the time being that it effects not only in how the ball reacts off the rail, but how the object ball reacts off of the cue ball that is spinning. If you miss a shot or a leave, you need to know why. Was it because you put unintentional spin or was it simply because your aim was off or was it because you simply didn't know where the cue was headed after it struck the object ball?
All of us have been at a stage in our game that we just needed to concentrate on making a ball and gave little to no thought to our next one. As we progressed, we started thinking about trying to get to another one. Not any specific ball, just one of ours. Then we started thinking 1, 2, 3 balls out, then eventually a run out. During that progression is when we start trying to control the cue ball more and more but too many people start too early trying to use spin to do it instead of natural roll. I truly believes it holds them back and lengthens the amount of time for them to actually progress in the phase because of all the additional variables that one little act introduces. Tor Lowry has a great drill for this.
Every shot taken we analyze. One analysis should be whether or not you must you spin the cue ball to get it where you need it for the next shot. If you don't need, then don't introduce variables into the shot that do not need to be there. Would you jump, kick or bank a ball that doesn't need to be jumped, kicked or banked just because it may give you a 5% better leave with the cue ball?
I think even many of you "spin masters" don't have nearly the control you think you do with spin, especially when you go to different equipment. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular so don't get the egos out to tell all of us how great you are with spin and how you can put a sharpie dot on a table and put the cue ball on it after 5 rails so everyone should use it as much as they can until they reach your level. That is simply poor advise in general.
Thanks. Maybe I'm biased but I think it's the most reasonable post in this thread.
PoolChump
Banned
Spin to Win!
I regularly spin 8 rails around the table and am always out of position for the next shot.
I regularly spin 8 rails around the table and am always out of position for the next shot.
Try it again, but with a Cuetec this time. Master that shot and then go for a 10 rails shot. Repeat till you bleed.
You're an APA 6, right...?
PoolChump
Banned
Spin to Win or
I think I need to work on my speed control. Adding a few more rails of spin would throw me off a bit.
I think I need to work on my speed control. Adding a few more rails of spin would throw me off a bit.
Correct. Why do you ask?
From direct and blunt answer, your answers suggests that you should be listening to some of the advice rather than giving it. I teach spin and patterns, specifically to those that are in the SL-5 and SL-6 range as that is the area that they need to get to the next level. Their shot making is decent to good, good enough to become an SL-5 or 6, but they'll never get to the SL-7 and above without a good understanding of how to use english.
Note that we're NOT saying we should spin the living shit out of the ball five rails to drop the cueball on dime. Nobody is saying that.
To use spin and go two or more rails makes this game so much easier, it's crazy for anyone to write such hogwash as "don't go multiple rails because you don't know what's going to happen" or similar. That's just crazy talk.
Freddie
Because every 6 I beat on a weekly basis tells me what shots I played wrong. And how they would have played it. Or asks "why on earth" I chose the 4 rail inside follow route instead of playing single rail outside draw. Meanwhile, the match was a 5-0 win for me, in 4 innings total.
If you want to listen to the smartest people in the APA, they're usually 5s and 6s. They tell me more stuff about how to improve my play than anyone.
This really is the truth. I am not a world beater, but I am a 7 in eight ball. I get advice "handed down" to me all the time from the guy who used to beat me when I first started out. Anyone wonder why he is still giving advice but not improving his own skill level?
Bingo!..... Nice Fred
Hey Rick,
Merry Christmas to you and your family as well.
Good to see you posting again. I am not around these parts often but could not resist a spin or no spin zone thread.
I think Buddys comment says it all.
Actually, he gave very good advice. Maybe you should re-read what he wrote. ?? He never stated that one shouldn't use spin. And, I think that if you re-read it, you will find that you essentially said the same thing he did.
I totally agree with teaching center axis first. There is a good reason for this. If you can't hit center axis reliably, you will never be able to hit anywhere else reliably either. Which means, you will never attain the repeat ability and consistency that you are capable of achieving.
Learn what center axis can do for you. Learn what the different speeds can and will do for you. Learn the 30 degree , the 90 degree, the 45 degree rules. Learn the 1/2 rule for draw. Then get into english. Learn the clock system. Learn what different speeds do with english. Learn what english does to the speed of the cb off rails. Learn to use all the way out on the cb. Learn to partial masse' and full masse'.
I'd say about half my shots are center axis. Then about 45% of the rest are about one tip of spin. Rarely do I need to go farther out on the cb. Although it does come up now and then.
English is a big killer of consistency in both shot making and position play with amateurs. Is it needed? Of course it is. You will never attain your top speed without full control of the cb. At the same time, with amateurs, I believe it is way overused. You will stay more consistent when you can stay closer to the center axis than when you are usually seeing how much spin you can get because it looks flashy.
If I remember correctly, as it has been a long time since I have seen it, on the DVD Buddy made, he strongly recommended to stay one tip or closer to the center line of the cb.
It's a big killer of consistency if you don't know how to visually align on different cb-ob relationships and how to use your feet and your hand. And you need to know the exact amount of spin you use on this alignment.
It doesn't have to do with Ld shafts, pivot point of the shaft, bridge length, etc.
You play on swerve lines. And if you realize this, you go with it. It's natural.
For example, trying to play cb quarter sidespin on center ball hit alignments doesn't sound very natural. But people keep saying that with the "xxxx" ld shaft they just bought they can spin the s...t out of the cue ball without adjusting so much.
What does "without adjusting so much" mean ? It means "FEEL". They still don't know what they are doing.
One tip or closer is spin, unless you care to argue stun and punch strokes and sliding cue balls, in which one tip or closer still applies spin.
I would go to my first post and read it if you haven't. I am pretty sure it says to play inside the cue ball and learn to work your way out to the edges. That is just my advice. This has been passed down to me from a few fine gentlemen I had the pleasure to learn from, if you haven't heard of them you can look them up.
Steve Mizerak, Pete Margo , Sailor Bill Barge, Jack Colavita, Cicero Murphy, Jimmy Wellington, Danny Gartner, Sonny Cho, Raymond Ceulemans, Henry Dozier, Benny Mcnevich, Jerry Beans, Jimmy Esposito, and a few others you may have heard of.
There is also a link there to a comment Buddy made at post interview, you may want to click on it. Basically what he is saying is to Shoot holes through the cue ball like a piece of Swiss Cheese if you have to, use the entire cue ball, the whole darn thing.
Cue Ball Precision, Striking Technique, Hitting Your Intended Target on the cue with a straight delivery stroke is the name of the game. The other 15 balls are these shiney colored balls that are there while we play pool with the cue ball.
Everything else is Childs play compared. From aiming, pocketing, patterns, breaking, bridges, nose picking, and etc.etc. It's Childs play; a monkey can do it and teach it.
Bring your Cue Ball Knowledge and Straight Stroke, anything else about this game you can pick up under a car seat, it's not Rocket Science.
I had nothing to do today until 2:00 so I thought I would write a short Novel. I forgot how much fun it is to participate in this forum.
What the heck, I will save you the trouble here is the first post and link.
P.S. I also heard that playing center cue ball down is a great way to strike, playing the lower end so to speak.
Originally Posted by SmoothStroke
1991 U.S. Open Final.....Buddy Hall and Dennis Hatch
Tables were fast in 1991 also
Listen to Buddy's comments about spin at 39:50.
Even center ball and punchy players can play off the edges.
If you are a beginner play on the inside of the cue ball and learn to hit it clean.
Then gradually move out wider to the edges, to extreme edges, the max, to the miscue point, learn to spin.
A straight stroke helps.
The sooner you understand spin the better off you are.
If you can't use the entire cue ball at any given time you have a lot to learn about pool.
Find a billiard table with no pockets and learn the cue ball.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVLJ3u5tWro
I have only one rule about spin, always hokey pokey first,always.
8 pages really?
8 pages really?