Shaw's Aiming

[BasementDweller]

Great post Dan. I've often wondered if the focus on finding one's vision center wasn't putting the cart before the horse.

Too many people on here underestimate the brain's ability to sort things out, or fill in the missing info. I think this is especially true when it comes to aiming.

Watch this short video as it supports this point of view:

https://youtu.be/eA2d1tKNFoU

 

[GoldenFlash]

... which isn't necessarily the correct place to put the cue. Whoever told GoldenFlash to put the cue under his dominant eye like shooting a rifle, as they always say, was wrong, except maybe when teaching the basics to a new player.

Why would someone teach the wrong basics to a new player? (then the new player has been indoctrinated with an idea that is wrong............according to you)
That sounds kinda' dumb.
If it's wrong, why teach it in the first place?

 

[One Pocket John]

... which isn't necessarily the correct place to put the cue. Whoever told GoldenFlash to put the cue under his dominant eye like shooting a rifle, as they always say, was wrong, except maybe when teaching the basics to a new player.

Putting the cue under the dominant eye, or wherever you naturally sight the cue (usually somewhere between the two eyes) in no way assures that you will be able to stroke the cue in a straight line. True. From a standing position, if you place your head and body based on what your dominant eye says will delivery a straight stroke you may not deliver the cue in a straight line.

It took me most of my pool playing life to learn this not so simple fact, and I am sorry that the state of billiards instruction for the last 30 years has not addressed this issue. For me, sighting the cue/shot naturally introduced a bias that made the cue look straight when in fact it was slightly cocked. I had a master BCA instructor point this out to me in the late 90's (yet somehow he didn't understand the cause of the problem and how to fix it). My father told me the same thing 5 years ago, nearly 10 years later. In each case I would have sworn that both men were wrong. Eventually, I began to conclude that there could be something wrong with my eyesight, or brain (my wife agreed with that idea :wink.

Luckily, I found that eye location is a funny thing, and what looks and feels wrong initially may actually be right, and eventually will feel right. True.

So my unsolicited recommendation is to find that head/body position that produces a straight stroke delivery. This is not easy to do without video feed back as the brain generally does not like change and is very good at fooling you into thinking everything is good and doesn't need hours and hours of hard work to retool the cue stroking machine.

In bold.
Man, you hit the nail on the head with this one.

Great post Dan.
I think that Gene (Perfect Aim) stumbled across these issues long ago and has helped many players.

Anyway you look at it Shaw has it all nailed down. His vision leads his body from the standing position down into the shooting position to deliver a reasonably straight stroke. I'm happy for him.

John

 

[Neil]

Great post Dan. I've often wondered if the focus on finding one's vision center wasn't putting the cart before the horse.

Too many people on here underestimate the brain's ability to sort things out, or fill in the missing info. I think this is especially true when it comes to aiming.

Watch this short video as it supports this point of view:

https://youtu.be/eA2d1tKNFoU

One should find the vision center first, and then work the body around that to get a straight stroke. Yes, one can, and many do, do it the other way around. And that then creates problems that are hard to fix later on.

One of those problems would be that many players can shoot balls rather well in one direction, but when that direction is reversed, they now have problems making the ball at the same percentage. (cutting a ball to the right and to the left).

They have trouble going right to left or vice versa because their vision center is not centered. There is a saying that is very true, the eyes lead, and the body follows. Without the vision centered, one will always have problems with aiming. They may not think they have a problem, but a simple left-right pocketing test will show it up.

The reason some have a problem with a straight stroke after correcting their vision center is simply because they didn't change their body position after they changed their head position.

 

[JoeyInCali]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYsNj7EXaAA
Get the third eye trainer and find out.

 

[GoldenFlash]

If you don't like CTE...don't use it or mess with it.

I am stating that if all this 'vision' stuff is critical (and for the sake of argument, let's just say it is)....you STILL have to hit the object ball in the right spot.
To challenge some of this idea about vision center....all one has to do is learn to use CTE effectively.
If a shooter is still missing a lot of shots after using the 15, 30, 45, and 60 degree shot angles that Stan Shuffett teaches, THEN it's time to worry about a vision center problem, or a stroke issue, grip issue, elbow issue, stance issue, or whatever. Notice I said a "lot" of shots....not 'ALL'.
Even Stan and other CTE users miss shots. The idea is to greatly reduce the percentage of misses. Speaking for myself, after over 60 years of ghost ball guesswork, that has happened. The percentage of misses has dropped very-y-y significantly. (I do not care one bit about the "WHY it works".....it just does, and that's good enough for me.)
A good test of a straight stroke that is simple and quite superior to shooting down the table making the cue ball come back to the tip:=> Lineup, get into shooting position, aim...then close eyes and pull the trigger. If most, I said 'most', of the shots are successful then a straight stroke issue is not the problem. That comes right from Billy Johnson, Joe Cosgrove, Ralph Guest, Buck Bozeman, Eddie Taylor, and Danny Jones...that's not The Flash's preaching. The Flash is NOT an instructor, nor a champion, nor a wannabe 'red hot'. ...he is only an old, beaten down, well worn, shooter ranked in the top ten million of the world.
I think CTE will expose weaknesses quicker than any professional instructor techniques I've ever witnessed. I've seen a LOT of 'em too.

 

[louieatienza]

I was born lefty but my parents made me a righty.... I'm pretty severely left-eye dominant, so it did pose challenges at first, with a lot of things. But you learn to adopt. If someone keeps missing a particular shot fat, they have to learn to hit it thin - REGARDLESS of what anyone thinks.

 

[Dan White]

I think that Gene (Perfect Aim) stumbled across these issues long ago and has helped many players.

I like what Gene is doing. I spent some time on the phone with him a couple of years ago. My only concern is that he might be trying to fix all problems with one solution, kind of like to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In my case, his recommendations turned out to be the exact opposite of what eventually worked.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[Dan White]

One should find the vision center first, and then work the body around that to get a straight stroke. Yes, one can, and many do, do it the other way around. And that then creates problems that are hard to fix later on.

One of those problems would be that many players can shoot balls rather well in one direction, but when that direction is reversed, they now have problems making the ball at the same percentage. (cutting a ball to the right and to the left).

They have trouble going right to left or vice versa because their vision center is not centered. There is a saying that is very true, the eyes lead, and the body follows. Without the vision centered, one will always have problems with aiming. They may not think they have a problem, but a simple left-right pocketing test will show it up.

The reason some have a problem with a straight stroke after correcting their vision center is simply because they didn't change their body position after they changed their head position.

I tried to search "vision center" to see where this term came from. In the process, I found a lot of people on AZ giving out really bad advice about finding your vision center and how this will cause your cue to line up straight. The brain is complicated and this stuff isn't easy to figure out, especially since we are all the same in some respects and different in others. Ultimately I think you have to try different things until you get it right. One thing that is mandatory, I think, is having a way to check your results objectively. Maybe video your stroke, have someone watch you, or shoot mirror image shots and be careful about observing any differences between left or right shots. Of course this method isn't foolproof as good results don't necessarily mean you stroke is straight. It might just mean you are swooping at the exact right time for that particular shot and speed.

 

[duckie]

I am stating that if all this 'vision' stuff is critical (and for the sake of argument, let's just say it is)....you STILL have to hit the object ball in the right spot.
To challenge some of this idea about vision center....all one has to do is learn to use CTE effectively.
If a shooter is still missing a lot of shots after using the 15, 30, 45, and 60 degree shot angles that Stan Shuffett teaches, THEN it's time to worry about a vision center problem, or a stroke issue, grip issue, elbow issue, stance issue, or whatever. Notice I said a "lot" of shots....not 'ALL'.
Even Stan and other CTE users miss shots. The idea is to greatly reduce the percentage of misses. Speaking for myself, after over 60 years of ghost ball guesswork, that has happened. The percentage of misses has dropped very-y-y significantly. (I do not care one bit about the "WHY it works".....it just does, and that's good enough for me.)
A good test of a straight stroke that is simple and quite superior to shooting down the table making the cue ball come back to the tip:=> Lineup, get into shooting position, aim...then close eyes and pull the trigger. If most, I said 'most', of the shots are successful then a straight stroke issue is not the problem. That comes right from Billy Johnson, Joe Cosgrove, Ralph Guest, Buck Bozeman, Eddie Taylor, and Danny Jones...that's not The Flash's preaching. The Flash is NOT an instructor, nor a champion, nor a wannabe 'red hot'. ...he is only an old, beaten down, well worn, shooter ranked in the top ten million of the world.
I think CTE will expose weaknesses quicker than any professional instructor techniques I've ever witnessed. I've seen a LOT of 'em too.

If you use ghost ball for 60 years and still was guessing.......you were the problem not ghost ball.

You were not practicing right, didn't have the drive or other factors, but ghost ball had nothing to do with it.

Guesswork.........next time at the table.......look at a ball......its round......it rolls......it doesn't have edges. So you are totaling guessing when you state you use the edge of a sphere for aiming.

I use ghost ball, there is not guess work in my shots. Both the CB and OB go where I want.

I got the best compliment a pool player can get............I make pool shooting look easy.

All from practice, not what my aiming is based on.

Practice....that's the only way to get great.........to bad you never learned that.

Oh, this vision center stuff....hogwash...........use a bridge or do a behind the back shot.......your head ain't nowhere over the cue.

Wonder if this thread is gonna get deleted now........

 

[GoldenFlash]

If you use ghost ball for 60 years and still was guessing.......you were the problem not ghost ball.
You were not practicing right, didn't have the drive or other factors, but ghost ball had nothing to do with it.
Guesswork.........next time at the table.......look at a ball......its round......it rolls......it doesn't have edges. So you are totaling guessing when you state you use the edge of a sphere for aiming.
I use ghost ball, there is not guess work in my shots. Both the CB and OB go where I want.
I got the best compliment a pool player can get............I make pool shooting look easy.
All from practice, not what my aiming is based on.
Practice....that's the only way to get great.........to bad you never learned that.
Oh, this vision center stuff....hogwash...........use a bridge or do a behind the back shot.......your head ain't nowhere over the cue.
Wonder if this thread is gonna get deleted now........

Why would you be concerned about your thread being deleted ?....you haven't done anything wrong.
Practicing inferior and low percentage methods will not make you great. Think how great you might have become if you had practiced the highest percentage methods of play. Did you waste your life?......possibly. Therefore you probably remain a shortstop?? Only your opponents really know, I sure don't.
Some of the greats that I knew (Grady Matthews, for one example, who was far from being a dummy) all advocated looking at the edges of the balls at the visualized contact location and then bisecting the angle to predict pretty accurately the direction the balls would take. Luther Lassiter and Jimmy Reid practically lived by the half ball hit initial lineup...so did Puckett, The Squirrel, Billy Johnson, Don Watson.
And you say there are no edges? I guess in the sense that the edges are not like on a cube, that is correct...but they're certainly 'visible' on the balls for estimating purposes. For example, the edges that you say do not exist are used daily, even hourly, to determine who has won the lag before a game. I'm betting that you use the same edges (that you say don't exist) yourself when you've done a lag. Mmmmm?
Concerning my not practicing enough.........somehow I had an idea that someone would say "it's all my fault". You're stone cold correct about not practicing right though....I was still stuck in the mire of ghost ball guesswork. Violating the old adage of "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result = insanity"......for decades.
I take my strokes where I find them...the last thing I want to hear is someone telling me I make it look easy. As for me, the highest compliment I can get is something to the effect of "you sure are lucky".
Nevertheless, time marches on...........and for me, the balls keep going into the pockets accompanied by predictable position at a much higher percentage rate. I kinda' like that.
I can't say the same for your methods...been there and done them.

 

[born2push]

I bet the pros sometimes laugh at some of these comments. If it was a simple game, we would all be pros after years of consistent practice. There are many different aspects of the game. Aside from mechanics, aiming and stroke, thier is also attitude. Eferin is known for being very humble. I'm not on this forum alot, but very seldom do I see the pros arguing about the validity of techniques and aiming systems. Wonder why that is?

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[Dan White]

Some of the greats that I knew (Grady Matthews, for one example, who was far from being a dummy) all advocated looking at the edges of the balls at the visualized contact location and then bisecting the angle to predict pretty accurately the direction the balls would take. Luther Lassiter and Jimmy Reid practically lived by the half ball hit initial lineup...so did Puckett, The Squirrel, Billy Johnson, Don Watson.

Is that what he told you when you were in the 5th grade field trip?

 

[JoeyInCali]

Why would you be concerned about your thread being deleted ?....you haven't done anything wrong.
Practicing inferior and low percentage methods will not make you great. Think how great you might have become if you had practiced the highest percentage methods of play. Did you waste your life?......possibly. Therefore you probably remain a shortstop?? Only your opponents really know, I sure don't.
Some of the greats that I knew (Grady Matthews, for one example, who was far from being a dummy) all advocated looking at the edges of the balls at the visualized contact location and then bisecting the angle to predict pretty accurately the direction the balls would take. Luther Lassiter and Jimmy Reid practically lived by the half ball hit initial lineup...so did Puckett, The Squirrel, Billy Johnson, Don Watson.
And you say there are no edges? I guess in the sense that the edges are not like on a cube, that is correct...but they're certainly 'visible' on the balls for estimating purposes. For example, the edges that you say do not exist are used daily, even hourly, to determine who has won the lag before a game. I'm betting that you use the same edges (that you say don't exist) yourself when you've done a lag. Mmmmm?
Concerning my not practicing enough.........somehow I had an idea that someone would say "it's all my fault". You're stone cold correct about not practicing right though....I was still stuck in the mire of ghost ball guesswork. Violating the old adage of "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result = insanity"......for decades.
I take my strokes where I find them...the last thing I want to hear is someone telling me I make it look easy. As for me, the highest compliment I can get is something to the effect of "you sure are lucky".
Nevertheless, time marches on...........and for me, the balls keep going into the pockets accompanied by predictable position at a much higher percentage rate. I kinda' like that.
I can't say the same for your methods...been there and done them.

Jimmy Reid aimed equal opposite parts.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Is that what he told you when you were in the 5th grade field trip?

Sorry you flunked the 5th grade and missed the trip.
It were good.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Jimmy Reid aimed equal opposite parts.

He lined up first on half ball...........and went from there. (using edges that "did not exist")

 

[louieatienza]

I am stating that if all this 'vision' stuff is critical (and for the sake of argument, let's just say it is)....you STILL have to hit the object ball in the right spot.
To challenge some of this idea about vision center....all one has to do is learn to use CTE effectively.
If a shooter is still missing a lot of shots after using the 15, 30, 45, and 60 degree shot angles that Stan Shuffett teaches, THEN it's time to worry about a vision center problem, or a stroke issue, grip issue, elbow issue, stance issue, or whatever. Notice I said a "lot" of shots....not 'ALL'.
Even Stan and other CTE users miss shots. The idea is to greatly reduce the percentage of misses. Speaking for myself, after over 60 years of ghost ball guesswork, that has happened. The percentage of misses has dropped very-y-y significantly. (I do not care one bit about the "WHY it works".....it just does, and that's good enough for me.)
A good test of a straight stroke that is simple and quite superior to shooting down the table making the cue ball come back to the tip:=> Lineup, get into shooting position, aim...then close eyes and pull the trigger. If most, I said 'most', of the shots are successful then a straight stroke issue is not the problem. That comes right from Billy Johnson, Joe Cosgrove, Ralph Guest, Buck Bozeman, Eddie Taylor, and Danny Jones...that's not The Flash's preaching. The Flash is NOT an instructor, nor a champion, nor a wannabe 'red hot'. ...he is only an old, beaten down, well worn, shooter ranked in the top ten million of the world.
I think CTE will expose weaknesses quicker than any professional instructor techniques I've ever witnessed. I've seen a LOT of 'em too.

Is there a website that I can see that statistical data of yours? 50 million people in the US alone play pool, at least recreationally. I see this number you keep posting as being in the top 10 million? Is there a website that verifies this claim? And what is significant?

When I cannot go to the pool hall, I have a small piece of 3/4" I.D. PVC tube that's glued atop a couple small wood blocks. I practice my stroke by shooting straight through the tube, without hitting it. I don't think about anything else but getting my cue through that tube, smoothly with no contrived motion. I want to make another one where I can adjust the height, so I can practice my stroke with different bridge heights, and maybe bring it to the table.

My basic aiming strategy I suppose could be called a simplified CTE. Learning all these angles sounds good, but it's rare to have any shot at a round angle like 15, 30, 45, 60. It's not like we can whip out a protractor on every shot. The difference, "edge-to-edge", between 45 and 60 is a lot smaller than 15 to 30, and even then it's still guesstimation.

On a shot with no side spin, which I try to set myself up for and use as much as possible, I do imagine the "ghost ball" and place it according to whether I have to account for throw if I'm rolling it slower, or even follow or draw. I do this standing tall, looking down an approximate line from cue ball to ghost ball, which makes the angles easier to see. From there I merely drop my head down, focusing on that line of sight, until I can see the cue ball and object ball as close down as my head will allow. Then it's just a matter of hitting straight. As long as I keep the look of the cue ball/object ball relationship the same as I take my shot, I'm good.

For shots with side spin, I'll just hit a long cut shot with inside English, using my standard aim. Depending on where I miss the pocket, I adjust the location of the GHOST BALL, and try the same shot again. I do the same with outside English. Now I've "calibrated" myself for that day, with how I feel, with the equipment at hand, on the conditions I'm playing in. I don't shoot like a consummate genius all the time, but then again I'm lucky if I get out twice a month nowadays.

 

[louieatienza]

He lined up first on half ball...........and went from there. (using edges that "did not exist")

I think this "edge" thing is part of a whole "flat earth" conspiracy... maybe someone will say the cue ball is really flat! But yes, it's taking a 3D collision, and envisioning it in 2D orthogonal front view.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Is there a website that I can see that statistical data of yours? 50 million people in the US alone play pool, at least recreationally. I see this number you keep posting as being in the top 10 million? Is there a website that verifies this claim? And what is significant? To my knowledge there is no website that verifies this claim or anything else I say and there is nothing significant...(I am nobody, absolutely nobody)

When I cannot go to the pool hall, I have a small piece of 3/4" I.D. PVC tube that's glued atop a couple small wood blocks. I practice my stroke by shooting straight through the tube, without hitting it. I don't think about anything else but getting my cue through that tube, smoothly with no contrived motion. I want to make another one where I can adjust the height, so I can practice my stroke with different bridge heights, and maybe bring it to the table. We used and still use a coca cola bottle or beer bottle with a folded rag underneath to adjust heights...same results.

(the blue lettering is what I have to say)
No matter what you do or how you do it, if you're using ghost ball, you're using a lower percentage method of making shots. But, if you're happy, successful, and contented, by all means continue.....and disregard anything I type. Ain't life grand?

 

[Neil]

Is there a website that I can see that statistical data of yours? 50 million people in the US alone play pool, at least recreationally. I see this number you keep posting as being in the top 10 million? Is there a website that verifies this claim? And what is significant?

When I cannot go to the pool hall, I have a small piece of 3/4" I.D. PVC tube that's glued atop a couple small wood blocks. I practice my stroke by shooting straight through the tube, without hitting it. I don't think about anything else but getting my cue through that tube, smoothly with no contrived motion. I want to make another one where I can adjust the height, so I can practice my stroke with different bridge heights, and maybe bring it to the table.

My basic aiming strategy I suppose could be called a simplified CTE. Learning all these angles sounds good, but it's rare to have any shot at a round angle like 15, 30, 45, 60. It's not like we can whip out a protractor on every shot. The difference, "edge-to-edge", between 45 and 60 is a lot smaller than 15 to 30, and even then it's still guesstimation.

On a shot with no side spin, which I try to set myself up for and use as much as possible, I do imagine the "ghost ball" and place it according to whether I have to account for throw if I'm rolling it slower, or even follow or draw. I do this standing tall, looking down an approximate line from cue ball to ghost ball, which makes the angles easier to see. From there I merely drop my head down, focusing on that line of sight, until I can see the cue ball and object ball as close down as my head will allow. Then it's just a matter of hitting straight. As long as I keep the look of the cue ball/object ball relationship the same as I take my shot, I'm good.

For shots with side spin, I'll just hit a long cut shot with inside English, using my standard aim. Depending on where I miss the pocket, I adjust the location of the GHOST BALL, and try the same shot again. I do the same with outside English. Now I've "calibrated" myself for that day, with how I feel, with the equipment at hand, on the conditions I'm playing in. I don't shoot like a consummate genius all the time, but then again I'm lucky if I get out twice a month nowadays.

I suggest you watch some videos on CTE, because it is nothing what you think it is. You aren't understanding the angles at all.

As far as the pvc tube. There is a possibility that you are training yourself for a stroke that isn't possible on an actual pool table. Sounds like you are training for a completely level stroke. Good luck having one of those on an actual table due to the rails.