Learn with an aiming system or not

Neil said:
So, in your mind, CTE is no good because apples don't taste like oranges? And, yes, that statement makes just as much sense as your statement above does.

How is it that you don't understand the difference between a shot making contest, and an actual game of pool? Do you really think that the best shotmaker is always the dead lock to win any game of pool? That all it takes to be a winner at pool is to become a great shotmaker?

Also, what is this relevant objective data you speak of? Since the only data pertinent would be shots taken vs. shots made. Win-loss record would be totally irrelevant.
Click to expand...

You CTEers can't read. I haven't said CTE doesn't work. I have said it doesn't work ANY BETTER than any other aiming system. Otherwise, CTE users would be all amongst the top 10 players in the world. Yet I don't see one. Landon is a strong player. Stan is a strong player. Stevie is a strong player. But there are stronger players out there that aren't using an aiming system. Or are using different systems. The system MAY work for you. But there are a vast majority of us that don't feel like learning a new system. And we aren't closed minded. We have just learned our own system, and like it.

I don't see any statistical data proving that CTE is a more accurate system. Just conjecture and "belief". So stop insulting and putting down other aiming systems, or aiming methods. We don't beat on CTEers. We're just tired of seeing videos as to why our methods don't work. They clearly do. Just as well as CTE.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
You CTEers can't read. I haven't said CTE doesn't work. I have said it doesn't work ANY BETTER than any other aiming system. Otherwise, CTE users would be all amongst the top 10 players in the world. Yet I don't see one. Landon is a strong player. Stan is a strong player. Stevie is a strong player. But there are stronger players out there that aren't using an aiming system. Or are using different systems. The system MAY work for you. But there are a vast majority of us that don't feel like learning a new system. And we aren't closed minded. We have just learned our own system, and like it. <==Then USE it and stop trashing on mine. I could care less what you use or don't use

I don't see any statistical data proving that CTE is a more accurate system. Just conjecture and "belief". So stop insulting and putting down other aiming systems, or aiming methods. We don't beat on CTEers. We're just tired of seeing videos as to why our methods don't work. They clearly do. Just as well as CTE.
Click to expand...
Mister Shawn, your entire life on this pool shooting site rotates around what you call "beat on CTEers". Your hypocrisy is glaring.
You say: "We're just tired of seeing videos as to why our methods don't work"....then by golly STOP LOOKING AT THOSE VIDEOS. Duhhhhhh...:shrug:
Did that ever occur to you? Just don't look at those videos you're so tired of seeing and find so offensive....simple, right? That's what I do when I see a video I don't like...I stop watching it. You can do likewise, you know.
Isn't democracy wonderful.
 
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JB Cases said:
Most good players I know don't use ghost ball except in certain situations. Because it is not very effective or reliable.
Click to expand...
John,

Most good players aim by visualizing the angle of the shot and/or the required contact point and/or the required amount of ball overlap (ball-hit fraction) and/or the position of the CB at contact with the OB. All of these visualization methods can be described as "ghost-ball-based aiming." Regardless of how you visualize a shot, the CB must be sent to the required ghost-ball position to achieve the necessary angle, contact point, and ball overlap to pocket the ball. I view all of these approaches ("seeing the angle," "contact point visualization," "ball overlap visualization") as variations of ghost-ball aiming.

Regards,
Dave
 
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Shawn Armstrong said:
Some Ghost Ball hate links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMNs82JOumU&t=672s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNUeUnfK4eE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePqvWvD7V0U&t=443s

I love the last one, titled "Why ghost ball aiming is bad for good players".

Yet we're hating on CTE, right?
Click to expand...
Yes, you're hating on CTE, or specifically you're hating on those who promote CTE if they don't speak in ways that you deem acceptable. And yes, CTE does work better than some other aiming systems including ghost ball. If it did not then it is a 100% certainty that this discussion would not even exist. When people are willing to take a lot of shit over something then often there is a good reason supporting that conviction. With CTE that reason is results.

And again, (sigh), stop equating aiming with total performance. Aiming is one aspect of the game, the first thing any player does but after the player has decided where to stand in order to then go to the shooting position the execution phase starts. In inside the execution phase there are a ton of variables that affect the outcome.

I could take a laser configured to show you the exact shot line on every shot and you will still lose to a top player because you cannot execute like them.

Not only will you miss shots due to stroke errors you will also miss shots due to speed errors. You will also miss position due to speed errors and you will be out of line due to knowledge deficiency when you don't pick the right patterns.

So please stop with silly comment that if x-aiming system were so great everyone using it would be a top player. It's a ignorant red herring argument and pretty weak. I know you are smarter than that so it must be that you are making this weak and easily defeated point just to try and be snarky. Or I am wrong and you're not as smart as I give you credit for.

Here is a video I made on this topic years ago.

Stroking On The Known Line
https://youtu.be/2Vd0yHk8LMw


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
 
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God help us all.......

dr_dave said:
John,
Most good players aim by visualizing the angle of the shot and/or the required contact point and/or the required amount of ball overlap (ball-hit fraction) and/or the position of the CB at contact with the OB. All of these visualization methods can be described as ghost-ball-based aiming. Regardless of how you visualize a shot, the CB must be sent to the required ghost-ball position to achieve the necessary angle, contact point, and ball overlap to pocket the ball. I view all of these approaches ("seeing the angle," "contact point visualization," "ball overlap visualization") as variations of ghost-ball aiming.
Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
Maybe for a number of players (I'm in that group), it is more accurate to visualize the cut angles using a precise CTE method, instead of trying to visualize an imaginary ball sitting down there on the object ball...?
Others may not like that approach and consider it stupid.
Who cares?

I do not care what method you use and I'm sure you don't care what method I use.
The differing ideas and procedures exist...they're not going away.
If a ghost ball shooter, or a 90-90 shooter, or a 'crystal ball' shooter, beats my CTE horse in a pool match, so what? I'll just pay off and find someone else to get the money back from.
This stuff is insane....almost as if it was a life enrichment issue. :boring2:
 
Dave,
I thought that your lumping all of those "aiming systems" together under ghost-ball aiming was peculiar. Ghost ball aiming has always been explained to me as: Imagining a ghost ball sitting next to the object ball and aim for the center of where that ghost ball would sit in order to pocket the object ball.

If you're going to lump contact point to contact point and ball overlap in with ghost ball aiming you may as well add in CTE, Shadow aiming and light aiming and any others because the cue ball has to wind up where the ghost ball should sit in order to pocket the object ball.

To me, focusing on the center of the ghost ball position and aiming there is entirely different than aiming the cue ball in such a way as to hit the object ball contact point and pocket the OB.

I think people should use whatever aiming system they want to use and quit whining about what doesn't work or how one aiming system doesn't work the way they say it does or how one aiming system isn't as good as another aiming system.

Even people who claim to not have an aiming system, have an aiming system. They just don't call it an aiming system but they have a SYSTEM/METHOD of aiming no matter how you slice it.

JoeyA


dr_dave said:
John,

Most good players aim by visualizing the angle of the shot and/or the required contact point and/or the required amount of ball overlap (ball-hit fraction) and/or the position of the CB at contact with the OB. All of these visualization methods can be described as "ghost-ball-based aiming." Regardless of how you visualize a shot, the CB must be sent to the required ghost-ball position to achieve the necessary angle, contact point, and ball overlap to pocket the ball. I view all of these approaches ("seeing the angle," "contact point visualization," "ball overlap visualization") as variations of ghost-ball aiming.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
 
dr_dave said:
John,

Most good players aim by visualizing the angle of the shot and/or the required contact point and/or the required amount of ball overlap (ball-hit fraction) and/or the position of the CB at contact with the OB. All of these visualization methods can be described as "ghost-ball-based aiming." Regardless of how you visualize a shot, the CB must be sent to the required ghost-ball position to achieve the necessary angle, contact point, and ball overlap to pocket the ball. I view all of these approaches ("seeing the angle," "contact point visualization," "ball overlap visualization") as variations of ghost-ball aiming.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Blasphemy. John knows best. Now....kiss the ring,
 
JoeyA said:
Dave,
I thought that your lumping all of those "aiming systems" together under ghost-ball aiming was peculiar. Ghost ball aiming has always been explained to me as: Imagining a ghost ball sitting next to the object ball and aim for the center of where that ghost ball would sit in order to pocket the object ball.

If you're going to lump contact point to contact point and ball overlap in with ghost ball aiming you may as well add in CTE, Shadow aiming and light aiming and any others because the cue ball has to wind up where the ghost ball should sit in order to pocket the object ball.

To me, focusing on the center of the ghost ball position and aiming there is entirely different than aiming the cue ball in such a way as to hit the object ball contact point and pocket the OB.

I think people should use whatever aiming system they want to use and quit whining about what doesn't work or how one aiming system doesn't work the way they say it does or how one aiming system isn't as good as another aiming system.

Even people who claim to not have an aiming system, have an aiming system. They just don't call it an aiming system but they have a SYSTEM/METHOD of aiming no matter how you slice it.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

And there's only one person on this board with over 20 hours of YouTube video saying that a certain aiming method is inferior to another. Want to guess who that is?
 
JoeyA said:
dr_dave said:
Most good players aim by visualizing the angle of the shot and/or the required contact point and/or the required amount of ball overlap (ball-hit fraction) and/or the position of the CB at contact with the OB. All of these visualization methods can be described as "ghost-ball-based aiming." Regardless of how you visualize a shot, the CB must be sent to the required ghost-ball position to achieve the necessary angle, contact point, and ball overlap to pocket the ball. I view all of these approaches ("seeing the angle," "contact point visualization," "ball overlap visualization") as variations of ghost-ball aiming.
Click to expand...
Dave,
I thought that your lumping all of those "aiming systems" together under ghost-ball aiming was peculiar. Ghost ball aiming has always been explained to me as: Imagining a ghost ball sitting next to the object ball and aim for the center of where that ghost ball would sit in order to pocket the object ball.
Click to expand...
Joey,

Your point is well taken. Your explanation is basically the form of ghost-ball aiming I demonstrate in the following video, where I show how to use the cue and visual indicators to target the center of the ghost-ball position:

NV D.9 - How to Aim Pool Shots - Ghostball Aiming System - from Vol-II of the BU instructional DVD series

However, I wanted to make the point that any "aiming system" that requires you to visualize where the CB must be at contact with the OB can be characterized as ghost-ball aiming.

If you aim by "seeing the angle" of the shot, you are visualizing where to send the CB to create the necessary cut angle for the shot. If you aim by visualizing the necessary point of contact, you are visualizing where to send the CB to create the necessary contact point on the OB. If you aim by visualizing the required amount of CB-OB overlap at contact, you are visualizing where the CB must be at contact to create the necessary ball-hit fraction.

With ghost ball aiming, you must visualize where the CB must be at contact with the OB to create the necessary cut angle, contact point, and ball overlap. You still must send the center of the CB to the center of the necessary ghost-ball position, but one doesn't need to focus strictly on the center of the ghost-ball position to accomplish this. As demonstrated in my video, one can focus on a spot on the OB or cloth or on a distance from an edge or on an amount of ball overlap.

Regards,
Dave
 
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JoeyA said:
Dave,
I thought that your lumping all of those "aiming systems" together under ghost-ball aiming was peculiar. Ghost ball aiming has always been explained to me as: Imagining a ghost ball sitting next to the object ball and aim for the center of where that ghost ball would sit in order to pocket the object ball.

If you're going to lump contact point to contact point and ball overlap in with ghost ball aiming you may as well add in CTE, Shadow aiming and light aiming and any others because the cue ball has to wind up where the ghost ball should sit in order to pocket the object ball.

To me, focusing on the center of the ghost ball position and aiming there is entirely different than aiming the cue ball in such a way as to hit the object ball contact point and pocket the OB.

I think people should use whatever aiming system they want to use and quit whining about what doesn't work or how one aiming system doesn't work the way they say it does or how one aiming system isn't as good as another aiming system.

Even people who claim to not have an aiming system, have an aiming system. They just don't call it an aiming system but they have a SYSTEM/METHOD of aiming no matter how you slice it.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

The Ghost ball method I learned with came from the Joe Davis book "On Snooker".

He taught me the area method of aiming. By that he meant the Area of the object ball that is eclipsed by the Ghost ball. It gives you a very large target to aim at and is easy to teach.

It works well for me and most would agree that I pocket balls very well.

The main thing I like about it is that it is simple. No Pivots? No edges? no other needless adjustments. Just look at the area and shoot.

Bill S.
 
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Shawn Armstrong said:
And there's only one person on this board with over 20 hours of YouTube video saying that a certain aiming method is inferior to another. Want to guess who that is?
Click to expand...
Because it is. Joey is being diplomatic. Thing is that it is not an either/or situation. There is literally no pool player on earth who is not familiar with ghost ball.

Other aiming systems and methods have been around for a long time so other people have long understood that ghost ball is not the best way to aim. It is however the easiest way to explain aiming in pool in 2D manner. It is an easy and accurate way to make diagrams. It is an easy way to use the balls to show aiming to anyone. It is an easy way to set up shots accurately.

Every player has a grounding in ghost ball. It is part of their tool box forever. They can use it at any moment for any reason. I use ghost ball in every match I play. I use ghost ball in the videos I have done on precision safety play.

So when you try to characterize it as if adopting CTE means one has throw away ghost ball you are either truly ignorant of the reality OR you are being deliberately malicious by mischaracterizing my position.

My position is that Ghost Ball does not work as precisely as CTE (or as precisely as 90/90, Samba/SAM/DTD/SEE/Shaft Aiming etc..)

That opinion is based on my experience and supported by testimonials from good players around the world most of whom have dived into the subject much deeper than I have and who are much more adept with those systems than I am.

Also, if GB is easy and effective why are there dozens of devices designed to help players learn to use it?

Go into any pool room and ask a bunch of players to take a real ball and set it up as a ghost ball towards any pocket. They will place it and then check it and then fidget with it and then use the their cue to sight it and then fidget some more and then tap it and then move it again.... until eventually the person will say I THINK it's good as after all that they are still unsure.

Now this is reality. So with that in mind please explain how it's supposed to be easier to do this in an imaginary way?
 
JB Cases said:
Because it is. Joey is being diplomatic. Thing is that it is not an either/or situation. There is literally no pool player on earth who is not familiar with ghost ball.

Other aiming systems and methods have been around for a long time so other people have long understood that ghost ball is not the best way to aim. It is however the easiest way to explain aiming in pool in 2D manner. It is an easy and accurate way to make diagrams. It is an easy way to use the balls to show aiming to anyone. It is an easy way to set up shots accurately.

Every player has a grounding in ghost ball. It is part of their tool box forever. They can use it at any moment for any reason. I use ghost ball in every match I play. I use ghost ball in the videos I have done on precision safety play.

So when you try to characterize it as if adopting CTE means one has throw away ghost ball you are either truly ignorant of the reality OR you are being deliberately malicious by mischaracterizing my position.

My position is that Ghost Ball does not work as precisely as CTE (or as precisely as 90/90, Samba/SAM/DTD/SEE/Shaft Aiming etc..)

That opinion is based on my experience and supported by testimonials from good players around the world most of whom have dived into the subject much deeper than I have and who are much more adept with those systems than I am.

Also, if GB is easy and effective why are there dozens of devices designed to help players learn to use it?

Go into any pool room and ask a bunch of players to take a real ball and set it up as a ghost ball towards any pocket. They will place it and then check it and then fidget with it and then use the their cue to sight it and then fidget some more and then tap it and then move it again.... until eventually the person will say I THINK it's good as after all that they are still unsure.

Now this is reality. So with that in mind please explain how it's supposed to be easier to do this in an imaginary way?
Click to expand...

The problem with guys like you is that they are so clueless and in a effort to hide this fault, make up a lot of bullshit.
 
bstroud said:
The Ghost ball method I learned with came from the Joe Davis book "On Snooker".

He taught me the area method of aiming. By that he meant the Area of the object ball that is eclipsed by the Ghost ball. It gives you a very large target to aim at and is easy to teach.

It works well for me and most would agree that I pocket balls very well.

The main thing I like about it is that it is simple. No Pivots? No edges? no other needless adjustments. Just look at the area and shoot.

Bill S.
Click to expand...

But, but, but, good players don't use that because it's not good.
j/k

Jeesh, now I'm gonna try to find that book. :grin:
 
JoeyInCali said:
Don't you know that the world could not play pool before pivot systems were invented ?
Click to expand...
How do you know that "the world" hasn't been using "pivot" systems all along? Maybe ghost ball is the virus that has held pool back and the good players ended up naturally sighting and"pivoting" once they stopped trying to use GB as prescribed in books.

Maybe modern systems are simply descriptions of the visual process that good players use without thinking about it which then leads them to a certain type of physical motion that deliberate use of CTE of other good systems also produces.

In fact, at the SBE in 2002 or 2003 a group of us were standing around a table and discussing Hal's systems. There was a small crowd and at one point an older man said to me that that the system being described at that moment was similar to what he had been taught in the 60s.

Sometimes what we think is new has simply been forgotten and rediscovered.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
 
JB Cases said:
Because it is. Joey is being diplomatic. Thing is that it is not an either/or situation. There is literally no pool player on earth who is not familiar with ghost ball.

Other aiming systems and methods have been around for a long time so other people have long understood that ghost ball is not the best way to aim. It is however the easiest way to explain aiming in pool in 2D manner. It is an easy and accurate way to make diagrams. It is an easy way to use the balls to show aiming to anyone. It is an easy way to set up shots accurately.

Every player has a grounding in ghost ball. It is part of their tool box forever. They can use it at any moment for any reason. I use ghost ball in every match I play. I use ghost ball in the videos I have done on precision safety play.

So when you try to characterize it as if adopting CTE means one has throw away ghost ball you are either truly ignorant of the reality OR you are being deliberately malicious by mischaracterizing my position.

My position is that Ghost Ball does not work as precisely as CTE (or as precisely as 90/90, Samba/SAM/DTD/SEE/Shaft Aiming etc..)

That opinion is based on my experience and supported by testimonials from good players around the world most of whom have dived into the subject much deeper than I have and who are much more adept with those systems than I am.

Also, if GB is easy and effective why are there dozens of devices designed to help players learn to use it?

Go into any pool room and ask a bunch of players to take a real ball and set it up as a ghost ball towards any pocket. They will place it and then check it and then fidget with it and then use the their cue to sight it and then fidget some more and then tap it and then move it again.... until eventually the person will say I THINK it's good as after all that they are still unsure.

Now this is reality. So with that in mind please explain how it's supposed to be easier to do this in an imaginary way?
Click to expand...

You're speaking from the side of your mouth.
It's not easier but you use it ?
" I could always go back to it." Your own words before.

Hal himself said there is no such thing as the ghost ball.
If you are using CTE, THERE IS NO GHOST BALL OR CONTACT POINTS.
You are dealing with table geometry, REMEMBER?
 
bstroud said:
The Ghost ball method I learned with came from the Joe Davis book "On Snooker".

He taught me the area method of aiming. By that he meant the Area of the object ball that is eclipsed by the Ghost ball. It gives you a very large target to aim at and is easy to teach.

It works well for me and most would agree that I pocket balls very well.

The main thing I like about it is that it is simple. No Pivots? No edges? no other needless adjustments. Just look at the area and shoot.

Bill S.
Click to expand...

In reading John's countless posts about systems, I honestly wonder how he leaves home every day, and gets to work. There must be doorknob turning systems. Drinking a cup of coffee systems. Having to look at your shoes to tie them systems. Don't even get me started on how he drives to work - I'm hoping he takes the bus.

If you raise the height of stairs in your house 1/8", you will trip and fall flat on your face. Your mind and body figure out a whole bunch of things on their own, and stick it into your subconscious mind. Things like when to blink. Or when to breathe. Or how to tie a shoelace without looking at it. You just do it.

When you've shot a shot enough times, you don't have to aim. You just "recognize" it. And the shot shoots itself. Leaves the mind to think about other things - like having a straight stroke, or an effective preshot routine. Maybe John needs to free his mind of the clutter in order to improve his mechanics. Because he's painful to listen to, and watch, in his videos. I'd take up darts if that was the only instructional material available on pool.
 
JB Cases said:
How do you know that "the world" hasn't been using "pivot" systems all along? Maybe ghost ball is the virus that has held pool back and the good players ended up naturally sighting and"pivoting" once they stopped trying to use GB as prescribed in books.

Maybe modern systems are simply descriptions of the visual process that good players use without thinking about it which then leads them to a certain type of physical motion that deliberate use of CTE of other good systems also produces.

In fact, at the SBE in 2002 or 2003 a group of us were standing around a table and discussing Hal's systems. There was a small crowd and at one point an older man said to me that that the system being described at that moment was similar to what he had been taught in the 60s.

Sometimes what we think is new has simply been forgotten and rediscovered.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Yeah, Moses taught the pivot system originally.
Wait, it might have been Noah during the 40 days of rain.
 
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