Is this shot legal?

Ralph Kramden

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
This shot happened years ago. I tried to set it up as best as my memory allows.

IMG_0646.jpg

Hope this image is rightside up.

Years ago 4 of us were playing Red Ball as partners. My partner was left this shot. The CB and OB were straight into a corner pocket.

He called me over to discuss his options because he needed to get shape on the 14 ball, and he didn't have an angle coming off the 13.

The shot he decided on was to pocket the OB, draw the CB, and either hit the 15 to pocket the 14, or come the rail for shape on the 14.

He hit too low. The CB instead of drawing, jumped over the OB, hitting the top of the corner pocket, and quickly came back onto the table.

The CB hit the 13 and it rolled into the 15. The 14 dropped. The 13 and 15 were in perfect position for the runout. Our opponents called foul.

What would be your call?

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If the cue ball's flight resulted from an unintentional miscue, it was a legal shot under at least these two sets of rules.

• From the WPA (world-standardized) rules:

  • 8.18 Miscue
    A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).

• From the CSI rules (BCAPL, USAPL):

  • A simple miscue, with no associated double hit foul as described above, has no effect on a shot under the rules. If there is no associated double hit, and a called ball is pocketed despite a miscue, it is simply a lucky occurrence for the shooter.


[Edit -- I'm unfamiliar with the game of Red Ball, so I don't know whether that has any effect here.]
 
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AtLarge said:
If the cue ball's flight resulted from an unintentional miscue, it was a legal shot under at least these two sets of rules.

• From the WPA (world-standardized) rules:

  • 8.18 Miscue
    A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).

• From the CSI rules (BCAPL, USAPL):

  • A simple miscue, with no associated double hit foul as described above, has no effect on a shot under the rules. If there is no associated double hit, and a called ball is pocketed despite a miscue, it is simply a lucky occurrence for the shooter.


[Edit -- I'm unfamiliar with the game of Red Ball, so I don't know whether that has any effect here.]
Click to expand...


AtLarge - The opponents called the foul. We said it was a good shot. They finally agreed as they had already pocketed 3 reds in that game.

This is how Red Ball plays... https://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard/Home/red-ball---3-7-11-15 A great game for partners.

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After reading the rules of that game (hit lowest ball then pocket the money ball), the lowest ball was hit so would be legal.

An accidental jump during a miscue is not a "scoop jump" which would be illegal. We had a post like that a bit ago, most agreed that an accidental jump did not equal the illegal scoop jump which is a foul.

That game sounds a bit like Razzle (which looks to be a New England area thing). Razzle you can pocket any ball, but the lowest number ball has to be hit (no rail after that contact is fine). So on a full rack, you can shoot in the 15 for the points, but you have to make the 1 ball move.

First time in 30 years of playing pool I have even heard of Red Ball. Is this a newer game someone came up with?
 
hang-the-9 said:
After reading the rules of that game (hit lowest ball then pocket the money ball), the lowest ball was hit so would be legal.

First time in 30 years of playing pool I have even heard of Red Ball. Is this a newer game someone came up with?
Click to expand...


hang-the-9 - I played Red Ball in the 60's in Buffalo, NY... I never saw written rules so I put them on my website.

It's a really good money game. We played a lot of Pea pool back then and also played Red Ball as an alternative.

.
 
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peter_gunn said:
If you miscue and cb jump over the ball its foul

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Are you thinking that the cueball then did not hit the ball? Then yes it's a foul but not because of the miscue, because you did not contact a legal ball. In this case, the cueball jumped over the ball but then hit the rail and the ball and made legal contact.

For a miscue vs a deliberate scoop jump the WPA rule was posted http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5811635&postcount=2
 
I think I'd need a ladder to reach that shot.
 

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Ralph Kramden said:
This shot happened years ago. I tried to set it up as best as my memory allows.

View attachment 449848

Hope this image is rightside up.

Years ago 4 of us were playing Red Ball as partners. My partner was left this shot. The CB and OB were straight into a corner pocket.

He called me over to discuss his options because he needed to get shape on the 14 ball, and he didn't have an angle coming off the 13.

The shot he decided on was to pocket the OB, draw the CB, and either hit the 15 to pocket the 14, or come the rail for shape on the 14.

He hit too low. The CB instead of drawing, jumped over the OB, hitting the top of the corner pocket, and quickly came back onto the table.

The CB hit the 13 and it rolled into the 15. The 14 dropped. The 13 and 15 were in perfect position for the runout. Our opponents called foul.

What would be your call?

.
Click to expand...


You knew it was illegal when you posted it. Too late now, the authorities have already seen it.
 
hang-the-9 said:
After reading the rules of that game (hit lowest ball then pocket the money ball), the lowest ball was hit so would be legal.

An accidental jump during a miscue is not a "scoop jump" which would be illegal. We had a post like that a bit ago, most agreed that an accidental jump did not equal the illegal scoop jump which is a foul.

That game sounds a bit like Razzle (which looks to be a New England area thing). Razzle you can pocket any ball, but the lowest number ball has to be hit (no rail after that contact is fine). So on a full rack, you can shoot in the 15 for the points, but you have to make the 1 ball move.

First time in 30 years of playing pool I have even heard of Red Ball. Is this a newer game someone came up with?
Click to expand...


Red ball is like all other rotational games. The lowest ball must be hit first at all times.
If the lowest ball is legally hit, and any red ball pockets incidentally, it stays down.
If a red ball pockets "illegally" it spots back up immediately.
I just added "rotational" to the rules as it can, and seems like it did become confusing.

http://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard/Home/red-ball---3-7-11-15

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Hell, based on the pic i'm really impressed that you've found out how to defy gravity. Impressive.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Are you thinking that the cueball then did not hit the ball? Then yes it's a foul but not because of the miscue, because you did not contact a legal ball. In this case, the cueball jumped over the ball but then hit the rail and the ball and made legal contact.

For a miscue vs a deliberate scoop jump the WPA rule was posted http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5811635&postcount=2
Click to expand...
If player miscue AND cb went over the ball its foul. At least un Europe ;)

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
 
peter_gunn said:
If player miscue AND cb went over the ball its foul. At least un Europe ;)

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

peter_gunn - The shot in the picture was about 50 years ago and set up from memory.

Back then there were no jump cues and everyone knew how to masse' and kick at balls.

Any scoop shot to hit a ball behind interfering balls was illegal and why a foul was called.

We said it wasn't a foul as he miscued, jumped over his own ball, and he hit his own ball.

It was dumb luck that would take 1000 tries to duplicate as he actually made the 14 ball.

Does anyone play Red Ball in Croatia?... http://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard/Home/red-ball---3-7-11-15

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