pin glue / epoxy
- Thread starter captainjko
- Start date
Just busting your chops Eric.
I know :wink:
My real name is Eric, not qbilder, and I make Sugartree cues, although my user name doesn't reflect it. I use 5-min epoxy for joint pins. My holes are drilled, not bored. My cores are straight & held with poly glue. I use cyano in places other than the tip. I don't have a single machine that I cannot lift by myself. My shop doesn't even have 220v. I use shafts that have wiggly grain or sugar marks. If it's straight & plays well, it's good for me. I rarely if ever indicate anything on a cue, only when tuning a chuck or taper bar. I don't use CNC, don't even know how to. I never thread collars, and only live thread ferrule tenons. Everything else is tapped. Sometimes I jam out to Clapton as I'm working in the shop. Other times it's Clint Black, or maybe even P!NK.
Yup, I have come to realize how terribly wrong I have been all these years. Ask any expert on this forum who has made 12 cues & they'll explain in detail why my methods are wrong. According to the forum info, my cues should be falling apart. Heck, I shouldn't even be able to make the cues I do. All of the hundreds of cues over the better half of two decades, with their sharp, even points & still in tact finish and straight shafts, are all piles of junk because I didn't do things the way the forum said I should. In fact, I did most of the things the forum said is wrong, and that real cue makers don't do. I guess i'm not a real cue maker, and all those cues I made aren't real, either. Heck, I guess I wasted a bunch of time trying to be original. All I had to do was get a lathe that weighs a ton, copy somebody's simple cues, and I'd be legit. Who'd have thunk it?
As smartass as that all sounds, it's absolutely accurate. It's precisely how I feel when I read through some of these threads. Paul Dayton has made more cues than anybody who frequents these forums, and has a stellar reputation for quality. If the man says 5-min epoxy is joint pin glue, then 5-min epoxy is joint pin glue. But on these forums, he's just another opinion that gets drown out by naysayers, unoriginal blowhards, and over zealous beginners. Nothing I just posted means a damn thing, but golly I feel better for saying how I feel.
Glad I could help.
Agreed. Go with what works for you. As long as your customers are happy, that is the REAL bottom line. 
The holding power of Five Minute epoxy is not why I quit using it for joint pins early on like 28 years ago. It was because it froze up the pin on me a few times while putting the pin in or caused the side of the cue to split while screwing the pin in. I was just too slow at installing my pin to use it at the time. I also see now from how people who do use it have advised that I was using too much glue. It worked for me at least three quarters of the time back then. But those few blow outs and having to remove the pins that did not make it deep enough into the cue were frustrating enough.
So the slower Two Ton rescued me from those headaches. And I have been able to remove pins glued in with Two Ton using the torch method. So my opinion for the way I want to build cues is I am not building the joint to be easy to fix if it fails. But I am building it to stay put period. The only thing I try to make easy to replace if it fails is Ivory Joints and I have not had to replace one that I built that way yet.
So the slower Two Ton rescued me from those headaches. And I have been able to remove pins glued in with Two Ton using the torch method. So my opinion for the way I want to build cues is I am not building the joint to be easy to fix if it fails. But I am building it to stay put period. The only thing I try to make easy to replace if it fails is Ivory Joints and I have not had to replace one that I built that way yet.
This ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
I switched over to 88 for pins long ago also. 2 reasons mainly....I want the inside of my hole before installing soaked with glue and I also put the glue on my pin. No matter how precise I make the hole there may be a few small spots that I want to make sure are glue filled. The pin has a relief channel on it and I want to take the time to install the pin at a pretty precise depth with a certain amount +/- .001 extruding from the face of the joint. I don't want time constraints dictating how long it takes to achieve this.
I have never had a problem torching one out after the fact should it be necessary down the road.
I believe you've made more than a dozen cues.
So, I'll believe you.
That potential source of buzz or rattle scares me.
So, like you, I like the wicking part and the air pop at the end.
I still don't get why one would be so concerned how epoxy melts when you use brass screws. They machine easily. So does G-10 and aluminum.
SS is a different matter. Maybe an induction heater would help. Ryan has one.
We should ask him how much pin removal he does.
From my own experience, it is easier to remove the pin when 5 minute epoxy was used. It takes less time and I think less heat to remove the pin which is better for the wood as well IMO. IIRC, it took a lot longer to torch a pin that I glued with West System and I needed to generate more heat which exposed the wood to more heat as well.
That was kinda the point I was making, though Paul said it better. If the joint work is quality, then there's no need to worry about it coming out, buzzing, etc. If you're using stronger glue because of those issues then your joint work needs work.
The timeline explanation is something else. I totally understand that. It takes me all of a few seconds to install my pin once the machining is done, so 5-min isn't a problem. If it takes somebody longer, then yeah they'd naturally want a slower curing glue.
Nobody installs a pin with the expectation of doing it again later. However, it happens. Since Ryan's name was mentioned, I wonder how many pins he has to replace because the pin was installed with 5-min epoxy? I'd venture to guess the vast majority of pins he replaces is due to idiots marring the threads, bending the pin, or folks simply wanting the pin changed to a different type so they can use a new LD shaft. In those cases, the pin being installed with 5-min epoxy makes his job MUCH easier with significantly less heat stress on the wood.
Epoxies
I don't think most of the cue-builders on here worry about; what if the pin has to be removed in the near future, not enough occurrences to worry or prepare for it, specially since the hole probably was made and tapped correctly; grooved channels on the pin. etc
Here again, if you are one who does repairs then yes you will encounter the problem of removing somebody else pin probably due to damage or misalignment and you wish and hope they used five minute epoxy
I use 3M T88 on pins and West 105/206 for everything else except ferrules which are threaded and get five minute epoxy.
Nothing I have read tempts me to change any of it.
Mario
I don't think most of the cue-builders on here worry about; what if the pin has to be removed in the near future, not enough occurrences to worry or prepare for it, specially since the hole probably was made and tapped correctly; grooved channels on the pin. etc
Here again, if you are one who does repairs then yes you will encounter the problem of removing somebody else pin probably due to damage or misalignment and you wish and hope they used five minute epoxy
I use 3M T88 on pins and West 105/206 for everything else except ferrules which are threaded and get five minute epoxy.
Nothing I have read tempts me to change any of it.
Mario
Which kinda drives the point. Nobody trying to convince you to change. Nobody said you are wrong, that your methods are bad, that their methods are superior to yours. Not so for BECUES & myself. Our method was shot down & belittled as inferior, no place in cue making. And for what purpose? Is bashing other makers' methods helpful to the OP? This kind of crap not only demoralizes & publicly belittles a colleague, but plants seed of doubt in the minds of potential buyers for his cues. I'm relatively immune to that BS because my cues speak for themselves. But for a guy who is trying to build a name, it can be devastating. Whether done so for that intent or not, it needs to be called out.
5 Minute
I use 5 minute, only on pins, for the same reason. I've never had a failure to my knowledge. It doesn't take much at all to hold a pin in place. I've had cues (not mine) that I practically had to start on fire to get the pin out and that is annoying. A few McDermott's come to mind.
That ^. I use 5-min for exactly the reasons Chris just said. Upon reading the rest of the thread, it's obvious once again how wrong I have been all these years
I use 5 minute, only on pins, for the same reason. I've never had a failure to my knowledge. It doesn't take much at all to hold a pin in place. I've had cues (not mine) that I practically had to start on fire to get the pin out and that is annoying. A few McDermott's come to mind.
Well said Eric.
This forum is really baffling sometimes.
If you come on here and ask "how it's done" most will help you. Some however will tell you to figure it out yourself and stop trying to take shortcuts. Both positions have validity.
If you come back later and describe some way you're doing it that's not "how it's done" the same ones who told you to figure it out will be the first to tell you "THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S DONE YOU IDIOT!
I love this place
JC
Yup. First page usually technical support. Next 3 to 6. Pissin contest.
Ask the Cue maker or teach the next Cue makers?
Sometimes I feel like a nut. Sometimes I don't. :grin-square:
So true. I'm still a fisherman, not a true cuemaker perhaps, but I have made cues and the people who purchased them like them.
I'm open minded and will admit when I'm wrong, but I like to think that I give reasonable advice. I've never suggested anything on here that I haven't tried.
One good example would be when I suggested using red pads for scuffing between coats of clear. It was met with alot of skepticism until Royce revealed he used them as well.
I use G5 for my pins and I have a hard time believing, if properly tapped and prepped, that one would simply unscrew. In fact, Eddie Cohen and Ariel can also attest to this, most of the time it takes plies to remove an unglued pin....if it's done correctly. After the glue sets a torch is needed.
What works for one may not work for another, but don't tell someone their method doesn't work unless you've actually tried it and seen it fail. If you are lucky enough to personally know someone who has been making cues for more than twenty years and watch them use g5, it's a reasonable bet that it's a viable glue for pins.
BTW, I fixed an old school cue that had it's pin unthread a couple years ago. I won't reveal the maker, but it was top tier. Used g5 and it's been fine. I'm not sure what was used initially though.
Anyway, I've got to go and try to teach some 5th graders about the ocean...
Randy
Well said. If you notice. I didn't mention what I use. I use what I use based on years of repairs. I'm not going to bore anyone with details. If people are happy with what they use. That's all that matters. I respect not condemn.
I never said I was any kind on self proclaimed expert........ you said that.......... I merely pointed out that people seeking advice should not listen to "self proclaimed experts" that spout "never use this" statements......... when they are trying to be self proclaimed experts................. relax and get over it
Kim
Kim,
Trust me I am relaxed... I just don't like be called out "self proclaimed expert", that is the reason I rarelly post on here as well other cuemakers. Stupid posts and name calling like yours keep people that really love the craftsmanship away from this forum. I did not like your post. It's not a matter of getting over it it's a matter of respect for others.
One of the best posts on here. Thanks MW.
I was not speaking directly to you ........ I was speaking in generalities ............ I did not call you names......... maybe you are just to thin skinned........ not a good attribute if you post on this forum................. I give respect where respect is given...............
and I didn't like your post either........... are you happy now????
Kim
I am thin skinned when I see disrespect. That is why AZB became a forum with keyboard bullies and internet cuemakers. Have a nice day, hopefully you will be in a better mood tomorrow...
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