Strange foul, is this ball in hand?

What if you have ball in hand, it's hill-hill, and your girlfriend walks in, another guy looks at her ass, and when you look up, your long hipster beard glances off the cue ball, knocking it into a pocket but you catch it before it goes all the way down, but then when you're bringing it up out of the pocket your glove which is holding the cue ball touches the 8-ball, which is frozen to the rail?
 
jay helfert said:
We had a situation once where a player with BIH was moving the cue ball around with his cue and accidentally rolled it into the pocket. They called me over to the table and I called a foul on that. On hindsight maybe I made the wrong call, but I determined that he was moving the cue ball when the scratch happened. Let's see what Bob has to say.
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I ran a lot of 'cue ball fouls only' tournaments.
When you had BIH....ALL FOULS COUNTED.
It's a good rule....players will make moves in tricky situations.

And if you dropped the cue ball into a pocket, it was a foul.
Played in a lot of tournaments where that was the rule also.
....this one I'm still ambivalent about....no foul is okay with me also....
...but it should be stated before the tournament starts.
 
BRussell said:
What if you have ball in hand, it's hill-hill, and your girlfriend walks in, another guy looks at her ass, and when you look up, your long hipster beard glances off the cue ball, knocking it into a pocket but you catch it before it goes all the way down, but then when you're bringing it up out of the pocket your glove which is holding the cue ball touches the 8-ball, which is frozen to the rail?
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That's a foul and the other guy gets your girlfriend.
 
Lynch said:
So I'm watching an action match and player A has ball in hand after the break. He is moving the cue ball where he wants it with his cue stick, get's sloppy, and let's the cue ball slightly bump into another ball. In this case, this is ball in hand for player B now right? Player B just let player A move the ball back a half inch and take his ball in hand shot. I know this doesn't happen that often and is kind of a strange foul, so maybe they played it right?
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In an action match, anything goes....if Player B says "go ahead and shoot", he probably has the best of it...

In a tournament it's a foul....
 
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Lynch said:
So I'm watching an action match and player A has ball in hand after the break. He is moving the cue ball where he wants it with his cue stick, get's sloppy, and let's the cue ball slightly bump into another ball. In this case, this is ball in hand for player B now right? Player B just let player A move the ball back a half inch and take his ball in hand shot. I know this doesn't happen that often and is kind of a strange foul, so maybe they played it right?
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The key word in your post is action. Not all action is the same. Sometimes you call a foul and sometimes you let it go.

Example: You are playing a cheap set with a friend just for something to do - you let that kind of stuff go.

Example: This happened to me once. I'm in a college town and there is plenty of action available with college kids full of piss and vinegar with Daddy's cash in their pocket. I was playing a kid 9 ball once who didn't know a ball had to touch a rail. He kicked into the object ball but nothing came close to catching a rail. I didn't say anything until after then match when I showed him the shot and explained the rule. I got paid, he and his buddies thought I was a kind old man and I got more action.
 
jay helfert said:
We had a situation once where a player with BIH was moving the cue ball around with his cue and accidentally rolled it into the pocket. They called me over to the table and I called a foul on that. On hindsight maybe I made the wrong call, but I determined that he was moving the cue ball when the scratch happened. Let's see what Bob has to say.
Click to expand...

Well Jay, if you call a foul on that situation, is it a foul if it slipped fell on the floor from his hand? If you can move the cueball with the stick same as your hand to place it, it should be no different than dropping it on the floor (ball off table is a foul, same as cueball in pocket).

If you call that foul, you are saying the cueball was in play for a foul before the player made his shot, so you then need to call a foul if a player placed the cueball on the table, then changed his mind and moved it a bit. Since that second situation is not a foul, then dropping the cueball into a pocket, or off the table while holding it would not be. Does that sound like a similar idea there?
 
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pt109 said:
I ran a lot of 'cue ball fouls only' tournaments.
When you had BIH....ALL FOULS COUNTED.
It's a good rule....players will make moves in tricky situations.

And if you dropped the cue ball into a pocket, it was a foul.
Played in a lot of tournaments where that was the rule also.
....this one I'm still ambivalent about....no foul is okay with me also....
...but it should be stated before the tournament starts.
Click to expand...

I've never seen a foul called when you dropped the cueball while you had ball in hand, it's only a live ball if you touched another ball with it. What if you dropped it on the floor because your grip slipped or the other player tossed it to you? Ball off playing surface is a foul just like dropping into a pocket. To call a foul if you drop the cueball in a pocket in a ball in hand situation would then equal calling a foul if you dropped it on the floor or if you put it down on the table, then moved it again to line up another shot or adjusted it before shooting. To call the foul would mean the cueball was a live ball from the time it left your hand. It's not a live ball till you shoot it. You can place it, aim, then get up and move it again. Only if you hit another ball or strike it with a stoke does it become a live ball in a game. Till then it's like chalk, drop it, juggle it, stick it in your pants, all good. Up until you shoot or foul by moving another ball with it. That moving another ball foul is not because you moved the cueball but because you moved the other ball while not in the middle of a shot, same thing if you dropped your chalk on a ball. Cue ball fouls only apply to things during a shot, not because you are clumsy.
 
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Lynch said:
So I'm watching an action match and player A has ball in hand after the break. He is moving the cue ball where he wants it with his cue stick, get's sloppy, and let's the cue ball slightly bump into another ball. In this case, this is ball in hand for player B now right? Player B just let player A move the ball back a half inch and take his ball in hand shot. I know this doesn't happen that often and is kind of a strange foul, so maybe they played it right?
Click to expand...

Discussed your question with several referees at SBE last week. All agreed it was a foul. The cue ball is live whether sitting on the playing surface or in your hand. Touch a ball with your hand and a foul will be called.

Lyn
 
Lynch said:
So I'm watching an action match and player A has ball in hand after the break. He is moving the cue ball where he wants it with his cue stick, get's sloppy, and let's the cue ball slightly bump into another ball. In this case, this is ball in hand for player B now right? Player B just let player A move the ball back a half inch and take his ball in hand shot. I know this doesn't happen that often and is kind of a strange foul, so maybe they played it right?
Click to expand...

Alex Pagulayan did this exact thing against Shane in SVB vs Alex Round 1 (TAR match filmed at DCC). It's a foul and Shane took ball in hand.
 
league play or tournament = foul
just playing with a friend = up to the two of ya .. I usually don't care and let him/her keep going.
 
cardiac kid said:
Discussed your question with several referees at SBE last week. All agreed it was a foul. The cue ball is live whether sitting on the playing surface or in your hand. Touch a ball with your hand and a foul will be called.

Lyn
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I appreciate you looking into it. A couple guys were actually playing for fairly high stakes ($4500) and it was the weaker player who fouled. The guy that let him continue was up a couple games and it was somewhat early in the match if I remember right. This could have been why he let it slide. I had the stronger player and had to give up 4 games on the wire in a race to 20, since no one would bet on the other guy even. So of course, I wasn't thrilled about him letting the foul go and then wondered if I was nuts thinking it was a foul...The guy I had won by 5, so I covered the spread by 1. Was nice to get some closure on this. So at least for tourney play, it's a foul all day long. With action, it should be a foul, but as in this case, may depend on the opponent.
 
The same players that crash into a ball while moving the cueball with their stick are the same ones that splash balls with their hands, never get balls out of the return and generally can't be bothered with rules , {unless they benefit them]
I have absolutely zero tolerance for some knucklehead that never misses a ball, bumping into things and making fouls.
Sit down , it' is my turn. maybe next time you will exhibit a little more care.
If you let them get away with it, it never ends.
 
hang-the-9 said:
I've never seen a foul called when you dropped the cueball while you had ball in hand, it's only a live ball if you touched another ball with it. What if you dropped it on the floor because your grip slipped or the other player tossed it to you? Ball off playing surface is a foul just like dropping into a pocket. To call a foul if you drop the cueball in a pocket in a ball in hand situation would then equal calling a foul if you dropped it on the floor or if you put it down on the table, then moved it again to line up another shot or adjusted it before shooting. To call the foul would mean the cueball was a live ball from the time it left your hand. It's not a live ball till you shoot it. You can place it, aim, then get up and move it again. Only if you hit another ball or strike it with a stoke does it become a live ball in a game. Till then it's like chalk, drop it, juggle it, stick it in your pants, all good. Up until you shoot or foul by moving another ball with it. That moving another ball foul is not because you moved the cueball but because you moved the other ball while not in the middle of a shot, same thing if you dropped your chalk on a ball. Cue ball fouls only apply to things during a shot, not because you are clumsy.
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I said I was ambivalent about a ball dropped into a pocket,,,,
,,,what you say makes sense.....so now I'm changing my mind....no foul.
 
in a tournament all reules are fair game to be called on someone.

in a side game no harm no foul is best. without a referee then the opponent who is now mad and wont play you ever again just says no i didnt touch any ball you must be dreaming. then what do you do. fight him?

that foul didnt cause any harm as you can just replace the ball that moved.
 
How about this scenario? You shoot the 8 ball in and the cue ball is headed right to the side pocket, but a kitten pops out of the pocket and bats it away.

Yes, I have played on a table where a kitten was running around the ball return tracks.
 
Strange Fouls

It is helpful if the referee knows and is willing to enforce the rules. At the SBX warm-up event on Wednesday night a friend of mine was playing and his opponent shot the 8-ball. The cue ball was rolling toward the side pocket and it was evident it was going to just have enough speed to scratch. Just as the CB gets there the opponent places his stick across the mouth of the pocket and stops the CB. My friend calls a foul and the shooter says it was not a foul since he didn't physically touch the CB with his hand and any part of his body. They get the referee who asks the guy if he in fact stopped the CB with his stick. The man says yes, but emphasized he didn't touch it with his body. There was even a chalk mark on the pocket liner where his tip contacted it. The referee says that because he didn't actually see it, the call went to the shooter who proceeded to win the game. Later this guy scratched and subsequently lost the match to my friend.
 
cue4me said:
... They get the referee who asks the guy if he in fact stopped the CB with his stick. The man says yes, but emphasized he didn't touch it with his body. There was even a chalk mark on the pocket liner where his tip contacted it. The referee says that because he didn't actually see it, the call went to the shooter who proceeded to win the game. Later this guy scratched and subsequently lost the match to my friend.
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Here's a clue for the clueless ref: if a player confesses to a foul, call it on him. Further, the ref should have said that if the player again intentionally touches any ball in play, including with the side of his stick, he is subject to being disqualified from the event.

Part of being a pool ref is teaching the rules to players who don't know them.
 
Inaction said:
How about this scenario? You shoot the 8 ball in and the cue ball is headed right to the side pocket, but a kitten pops out of the pocket and bats it away.

Yes, I have played on a table where a kitten was running around the ball return tracks.
Click to expand...


Restore the balls to their original positions and the shooter shoots again.

WPA rules: 1.9 Outside Interference
CSI (BCAPL, USAPL) rules: 1-48 Non-Player Interference
 
I have actually used this rule to my advantage in a matches before.

Sometimes, just because of the way the balls are laying I will try get the user to attempt a shot which is very tight in hopes they foul while trying so I can get the advantage back.

It actually made a guy, his captain and one of this teammates very irate when I called him on it. I am pretty sure that one move cost them 3 matches. :-)
 
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