Rosewood Question
- Thread starter Jon Manning
- Start date
JC
Coos Cues
Some girls don't like boys like me.
But some girls do!
JC (won't let a grouchy old man ruin his day)
also... morado...
Forgot to thank you for the reply.... Thx!
YW....Hope it helps.
"I generally don't core a brw forearm unless grain runoff mandates". Please elaborate for the benefit of inquiring minds. Thanks, Bob
Coring lesson 101........
You're just petting my puppy, right? OK, I'll play along for giggles.
SHOULD NOT NEED ANY CORING DONE.....
WOULD PROBABLY BE WISE TO RUN A CORE THRU.....
IF YOU DO NOT RUN A CORE THRU THIS, AT SOME POINT YOU WILL PROBABLY BE A VERY SAD, MAD CUE BUILDER.......
HOPE THIS HELPS...........
Bob....
You're just petting my puppy, right? OK, I'll play along for giggles.
SHOULD NOT NEED ANY CORING DONE.....
WOULD PROBABLY BE WISE TO RUN A CORE THRU.....
IF YOU DO NOT RUN A CORE THRU THIS, AT SOME POINT YOU WILL PROBABLY BE A VERY SAD, MAD CUE BUILDER.......
HOPE THIS HELPS...........
Happens even on apparently straight quartered wood. Not many people know this but trees more or less grow on a spiral, some more than others. Since the wood is usually sawn parallel to the tree's vertical axis, the possibility of grain runoff exists.
The only way I know that assures you avoid this is to split billets. Of course that would mean very low yield.
I build acoustic guitars part time, and while some of my top woods have the very slightest hint of grain runoff. The bracings, however, are split to ensure continuity of grain. The very best, most expensive grade of top wood are split to ensure zero runoff, allowing the builder to make the stiffest, yet thinnest and lightest plates possible.
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The top two in the first pic would be the only ones that I'd use.
I may have to adjust centers even on those. The rest.......
I only buy straight grain, not really interested in hi-figure.
Everyone else wants the hi-fig. That leaves an abundance of straight for me.
But that's just me, well, that and I don't core (unless it 'mandates').
Who can tell me which would give a purer hit or would there even be a difference ?
If we're going to talk about it, let's do it.
I may have to adjust centers even on those. The rest.......
I only buy straight grain, not really interested in hi-figure.
Everyone else wants the hi-fig. That leaves an abundance of straight for me.
But that's just me, well, that and I don't core (unless it 'mandates').
Who can tell me which would give a purer hit or would there even be a difference ?
If we're going to talk about it, let's do it.
So if I loved the hit of BRW, but couldn't stand the straight grain, would you use the BRW as a core for a birdseye maple outer veneer?:idea2:
First, I don't build cues 'to order'. I build what I want so I'd suggest that you find someone else to build your 'Franken-cue'.
Trust me, there are CMs that would build it for you, it just wouldn't be me. You lost me with your dislike of straight-grain.
No offense but that's one reason that I don't build custom, having to accommodate a client's, let's say, 'odd' requests.
I wouldn't build that cored combination for myself so why would I build it for anyone else ?
I'm not a fan of coring to begin with. Just because it can be done doesn't mean that it should be done.
I've stated in an earlier thread that I try to abstain from builds that require coring.
I did start down the path of 'coring' only to quickly discover that I was on the wrong path. I seek purity of hit in my builds.
It was suggested in that thread that if I hadn't taken the time to 'master' coring, how could I claim my position ? Really ???
I'm 70 yrs old and have been building for 30. I'll let the kids find-out on their own. Why ? Because they have to.
I'd rather not turn this thread into one about coring but you did ask that question.
Straight-grain BRW doesn't need coring, nor does B. Kingwood or straight Camatillo. How are any of these woods not pretty ?
You want prettier ? There will be sacrifices to be made. BTW, what's the resonance factor of foam glue ?
Now, I've attempted to answer your question. Do you have any thoughts on mine ?
Straight vs hi-figure; is one likely to 'hit' differently than the other ?
Thanx, KJ
Trust me, there are CMs that would build it for you, it just wouldn't be me. You lost me with your dislike of straight-grain.
No offense but that's one reason that I don't build custom, having to accommodate a client's, let's say, 'odd' requests.
I wouldn't build that cored combination for myself so why would I build it for anyone else ?
I'm not a fan of coring to begin with. Just because it can be done doesn't mean that it should be done.
I've stated in an earlier thread that I try to abstain from builds that require coring.
I did start down the path of 'coring' only to quickly discover that I was on the wrong path. I seek purity of hit in my builds.
It was suggested in that thread that if I hadn't taken the time to 'master' coring, how could I claim my position ? Really ???
I'm 70 yrs old and have been building for 30. I'll let the kids find-out on their own. Why ? Because they have to.
I'd rather not turn this thread into one about coring but you did ask that question.
Straight-grain BRW doesn't need coring, nor does B. Kingwood or straight Camatillo. How are any of these woods not pretty ?
You want prettier ? There will be sacrifices to be made. BTW, what's the resonance factor of foam glue ?
Now, I've attempted to answer your question. Do you have any thoughts on mine ?
Straight vs hi-figure; is one likely to 'hit' differently than the other ?
Thanx, KJ
Dude get your head out of where the Sun don't shine. No one would be foolish enough to do my whimsical exercise, and the fact you took it seriously? Guess the Good Humorless truck passed by again.
If you hadn't deduced from my previous posts I'm a fan of straight grained woods. I even explained a reason why grain run-off occurs. And how I split wood for bracing for guitars. If I wasn't a straight grain fan I wouldn't use split billets for tops and split wood for bracing.
There are many ways to 'skin' a cat, as there are many ways to build cues. And there's a place for woods of all kinds. Except shaft wood. But I know of no builder that splits maple billets to ensure absolute zero-run-off wood. You can kind of tell by looking at it it you'd never be 100% sure unless it's split.
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http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=442431&highlight=coring
Plenty to read here on the coring subject and how certain individuals feel.
KJ, don't be a grump. I respect your position and feelings about woods, coring and grain run off but the baton has been passed. That's not to say you're not correct in your feelings and mission statement but you should keep an open mind about mating 2 or more wood combinations together in a cue build and having it come out OK. :wink:
Plenty to read here on the coring subject and how certain individuals feel.
KJ, don't be a grump. I respect your position and feelings about woods, coring and grain run off but the baton has been passed. That's not to say you're not correct in your feelings and mission statement but you should keep an open mind about mating 2 or more wood combinations together in a cue build and having it come out OK. :wink:
Then if you were being sarcastic, without me knowing you were doing so, how else was I suppose to answer your question ?
I don't know you from Adam nor do I follow your posts. On the other hand, you have no clue who I am either.
I asked you a simple question which you still haven't answered. Being sarcastic seems to be more important to you.
Your mental trap of a question didn't work; you got a thought-out response. Thanx for wasting my time.
I'd like to see more input here from Luthiers because resonance in cues has links to guitars.
I now tend to think that you're not the 'be all - end all' on that subject that you would like to believe.
I learned something about you today. I don't keep salt in the house but I should probably buy some; the big bag.
The sun's not shining here today so I have no worries.
Let's stick to rosewood talk.
You didn't take my question to be satirical nor rhetorical because you hadn't read my previous posts on this thread.
And you're right - I don't know who you are, but from your posts I pretty much know what you are, and it's not happy.
And I never said I was the be-all, end-all source on guitar knowledge, but grain run-off is pretty much common knowledge in all disciplines of woodworking.
To answer your question; there is a scientific measurement that defines the "ring" of a certain piece of wood, which is "Q" - which humorously enough, stands for "quality." Basically a measurement of the duration of tap-tone of a certain wood species in relation to a scale, of which I admittedly am not sure of how it's derived. And believe it or not, while BRW has a high relative "Q" value, it is not the highest up in the scale. But it is part of the basis of the prototypical "pre-war Martin" sound that many builders attempt to achieve (and I tend to avoid, because most every builder makes a Martin tribute in the same way most builders of 20 years ago made Balabushka tributes.) I believe ABW, cocobolo, Honduran rosewood, have higher "Q" values because of their density, but their effect on sound may almost be contradictory to what one would think. On the other end of the scale is maple; since it has a lower "Q" value one may think that it may not be suitable for guitar backs and sides, but on the contrary, it is very suitable, depending on one's style of play. Besides, the main determiner of a guitar's sound would be its top wood and bracing, since it is the top plate that is directly coupled to the strings. The back and side wood merely act as "equalizer", enhancing or attenuating frequencies; and "reverb", enhancing (rosewoods) or attenuating (maples) sustain.
How does this guitar mumbo jumbo relate to pool cues? Well in the case of BRW, it has the same "Q" value, regardless of cut. So I believe as far as "hit" or "feel" one probably wouldn't be able to detect a difference in a blind test, all else equal. If the BRW was cored with maple? Well, if the joint was .875" and butt end was 1.25", by volume it would be a very close to equal split. But since BRW is about 20% or so denser than hard maple, my estimated guess is that the feel would edge closer to BRW. And of course, the core material can be something that is closer in density to BRW. Also I don't think every builder uses polyurethane glue for cores as you allude. I'm sure its expansion qualities in the presence of water make it "convenient", though there are many ways to glue a core in with harder glues like epoxy. Again, these are generalizations based on my knowledge, but I'm sure there are exceptions and other cases where this may not hold true, wood being the inconsistent material it is.
I don't understand the "salt" reference, but you don't need to keep it at home; your demeanor is salty enough! With an attitude like that, does the sun EVER shine?
If I had the opinion that the entire butt had to be the same wood to achieve a "purity of hit", I might call someone's maple forearm and rosewood handle cue a "Fraken-cue". Except I wouldn't...that might sound rather disrespectful. I believe a maple forearm cored with rosewood cue is no more a "Fraken-cue" than a maple forearm and rosewood handled cue.
That BRW is not going to stay straight. It's awful.
Send it to me. It's just stinking your shop.
