apa is making changes

[trob]

I've told my local Apa operator that they are missing out on cash. Tap in my area has tournaments all the time for cash including the ralley in valley coming up in 2 days. Everything doesn't have to be about going to vegas all the time. People will be happy to show up for a tournament just to play pool for money and a trophy.

 

[lorider]

How are absences treated in a singles division? What are the minimum number of games?

One thing that has always bothered me about the APA individual MVP stats is the advantage to playing the minimum number of games. I can play 14 games and risk a lower average than someone who plays the minimum 6. I may win 12 of 14 games and i have an average worse than someone who 5 out of 6. I expose myself to doing worse point wise on average by playing more.

The singles would seem like it would suffer from the same issue.

Based on what I read I assume the singles division will be 3 full sessions just like team divisions are.

I dont know how other people feel about absences but here is my policy. If some thing comes up and you cant show on the scheduled night I will gladly reschedule with you at a time that is convenient for both of us ....as long as I am notified in advance you vant make it that night. However if I show up as scheduled and you are a no show its a forfeit....plain and simple. I am no hardass...i realize things pop up unexpectedly but my opinion is that if you care enough to contact me I will care enough to work with you. If you dont care enough to contact me why should i care about attempting to reschedule .....its a forfeit in my book.

About your average. I do understand your feelings about win % ...mvp etc as I used to feel the same way. I used to look at my stats every week ...wondering where I was at in top gun....what my win % was...how was I doing compared to others my skill level . I dont care about any of that stuff any more. All.i care about is how I play. I am more satisfied with a loss where I played dang good than playing crappy and still managed to pull out a win. I hope that makes sense to you.

As soon as i get more details I will try to answer your question on scheduling and amount of matches rather than my assumptions.

 

[lorider]

I do not think anyone should ever be allowed to waive any rules even through mutual agreement.
The rules are the rules and when they bother you, campaign to have them changed locally.
In the meantime, everyone should abide by the rules as written and any private interpretation
or mutual agreement to circumvent or ignore any rule should not be allowed for the sake of the
other teams in the league. That's like your golf team is playing against another team in match
play and in some of the matches, the opponents (both teams) agree to allow for a mulligan on
the front & back 9 when in truth there is no such thing as a mulligan in golf. Every stroke counts.

Once you start bending the rules, it is unfair to all of the other teams in the league. The ones that
abide by the rules are at a disadvantage versus teams that do not. Outcomes of individual matches
and overall team score can be affected by not adhering to the rules. Ergo, team standings become
influenced and if there's cash payouts for the top teams, that really makes it only worse if some teams
play by the league's rules and some agree to not., especially 23 points. I hate that rule and I'm not a
fan of APA but you always play by the rules because when you don't, it's an uneven playing field.

I completely agree.

 

[Scott Lee]

Actually, it's more than 35 years...APA started in 1979. I agree that the cash leagues are likely the work of the local LO. I had cash leagues and non-cash leagues in my APA franchise 25 years ago. Kudos to lorider's LO for listening to his players! I also think the singles leagues are going to be a national thing. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

APA is a franchise and offerings may differ depending the league operator. So kudos to your league operator listening to his players. For those who are not satisfied with their APA experience (such as only APA 8-ball), it may likely boil down to their league operator, not the entire league system.

I live in NYC, and feel fortunate that I have access to at least 4 different APA leagues, and a plethora of other league offerings (off top of my head 4 leagues are BCA sanctioned) to comparison. Each league's has it strengths and weakness.

So, when I heard someone tout the superiority of one league and compare it with the APA, I roll my eyes. The APA have been running over 25 years, and have 250K players participating on a weekly basis. If their business model was fundamentally flawed, people would have left long ago and other leagues would have eaten their marketshare. I do see the APA as a bellweather for popularity of leagues. If their numbers go up, then likely so for other leagues.

 

[lorider]

Actually, it's more than 35 years...APA started in 1979. I agree that the cash leagues are likely the work of the local LO. I had cash leagues and non-cash leagues in my APA franchise 25 years ago. Kudos to lorider's LO for listening to his players! I also think the singles leagues are going to be a national thing. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I would like to clarify two things.

1. We do not have cash leagues. We have received cash such as in top gun tournaments.

2. The 2 tournaments I mentioned in my op were not apa sanctioned. They were held for apa players and played under apa rules and so I assumed it was an apa event . I apologize for leading people to believe it was apa sanctioned . That's what happens when you assume instead of having the actual facts.

And I believe like you Scott that the singles division is going nationwide. I do wonder though if they will still be holding regional qualifiers ?

 

[ctyhntr]

AFAIK, none of the other leagues have been running as long as the APA/Busch league, or anywhere near the level of weekly participation.

Actually, it's more than 35 years...APA started in 1979. I agree that the cash leagues are likely the work of the local LO. I had cash leagues and non-cash leagues in my APA franchise 25 years ago. Kudos to lorider's LO for listening to his players! I also think the singles leagues are going to be a national thing. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[DCS_SF]

Based on what I read I assume the singles division will be 3 full sessions just like team divisions are.

I dont know how other people feel about absences but here is my policy. If some thing comes up and you cant show on the scheduled night I will gladly reschedule with you at a time that is convenient for both of us ....as long as I am notified in advance you vant make it that night. However if I show up as scheduled and you are a no show its a forfeit....plain and simple. I am no hardass...i realize things pop up unexpectedly but my opinion is that if you care enough to contact me I will care enough to work with you. If you dont care enough to contact me why should i care about attempting to reschedule .....its a forfeit in my book.

About your average. I do understand your feelings about win % ...mvp etc as I used to feel the same way. I used to look at my stats every week ...wondering where I was at in top gun....what my win % was...how was I doing compared to others my skill level . I dont care about any of that stuff any more. All.i care about is how I play. I am more satisfied with a loss where I played dang good than playing crappy and still managed to pull out a win. I hope that makes sense to you.

As soon as i get more details I will try to answer your question on scheduling and amount of matches rather than my assumptions.

Regarding absences what I mean is in team play you have alternates, where as you don't obviously in singles. Does that mean you have to show up for, or do a make up match for every game in a season? Man I could see this being a scheduling nightmare for the LO with vacation etc depending on how this is handled.

Also regarding MVP % and the issues I noted, I don't really pay much attention to it either, beyond noting it is somewhat flawed in its execution. It tends to punish those who play more often. The issue all sort of depends on if you are required to all play the same amount of games like I ask above, so that answer may invalidate this concern.

 

[Scott Lee]

AFAIK, none of the other leagues have been running as long as the APA/Busch league, or anywhere near the level of weekly participation.

VNEA is close. They started, iirc, in 1982. I started playing Valley League in MT in 1987 and played in until 1994. Went to the National tournament at the Riviera every year.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Regarding absences what I mean is in team play you have alternates, where as you don't obviously in singles. Does that mean you have to show up for, or do a make up match for every game in a season? Man I could see this being a scheduling nightmare for the LO with vacation etc depending on how this is handled.

Also regarding MVP % and the issues I noted, I don't really pay much attention to it either, beyond noting it is somewhat flawed in its execution. It tends to punish those who play more often. The issue all sort of depends on if you are required to all play the same amount of games like I ask above, so that answer may invalidate this concern.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[lorider]

Regarding absences what I mean is in team play you have alternates, where as you don't obviously in singles. Does that mean you have to show up for, or do a make up match for every game in a season? Man I could see this being a scheduling nightmare for the LO with vacation etc depending on how this is handled.

Also regarding MVP % and the issues I noted, I don't really pay much attention to it either, beyond noting it is somewhat flawed in its execution. It tends to punish those who play more often. The issue all sort of depends on if you are required to all play the same amount of games like I ask above, so that answer may invalidate this concern.

I could give you numerous examples of what a nightmare doing makeups with team matches around here. Two main causes in our area.


1. Some teams have regular sessions matches scheduled on Friday nights....the same night that tri cups are held. Some play on Saturdays...again the same day as tri cups. Those matches have to be made up.

2. Many players around here play on more than one team. Some may be in tri cups while your team is not thus leaving you shorthanded and possibly having to forfeit a match. Many also pls in a money league. Their playoffs occur at the same rime again leaving you not enough players to field a team and many try to reschedule matches.

I believe you are correct in the amount of matches you play a session affect your average. I used his pls on one team and won top gun several times and was always in the running. Now I play on several teams and am never in. Consideration for top gun.

I have already played 45 matches this session and its we still have quite a few weeks left to go .

 

[DCS_SF]

I could give you numerous examples of what a nightmare doing makeups with team matches around here. Two main causes in our area.


1. Some teams have regular sessions matches scheduled on Friday nights....the same night that tri cups are held. Some play on Saturdays...again the same day as tri cups. Those matches have to be made up.

2. Many players around here play on more than one team. Some may be in tri cups while your team is not thus leaving you shorthanded and possibly having to forfeit a match. Many also pls in a money league. Their playoffs occur at the same rime again leaving you not enough players to field a team and many try to reschedule matches.

I believe you are correct in the amount of matches you play a session affect your average. I used his pls on one team and won top gun several times and was always in the running. Now I play on several teams and am never in. Consideration for top gun.

I have already played 45 matches this session and its we still have quite a few weeks left to go .

Right the make up matches and tournaments shouldnt be an issue for most of the season, but with a team you dont have to be there every week. With singles is that the case? Three months is a long time not to miss a week here and there.

Right, that is exactly what I mean and why I asked how the ranking works. For our league MVP requires a minimum of 6 matches to be considered in the running. So someone who won 5 of 6 matches is unfairly up against someone who might have won 14 out of 16. Since it is based on points average, the person who played less games may have a shut out and gotten 3 points, and the person who played 14 games got 3 shut outs, but averaged it down with more 2 point games and losses.

 

[lorider]

Right the make up matches and tournaments shouldnt be an issue for most of the season, but with a team you dont have to be there every week. With singles is that the case? Three months is a long time not to miss a week here and there.

Right, that is exactly what I mean and why I asked how the ranking works. For our league MVP requires a minimum of 6 matches to be considered in the running. So someone who won 5 of 6 matches is unfairly up against someone who might have won 14 out of 16. Since it is based on points average, the person who played less games may have a shut out and gotten 3 points, and the person who played 14 games got 3 shut outs, but averaged it down with more 2 point games and losses.

I believe another reason I was always at the top...or close in top gun or MVP was due to the old 8 ball scoring system. It gave you points based on the skill level of the opponent you beat. As I usually played higher level players I received more points than some one who usually played guys their level or lower.

Theoretically I could lose a few more matches than you but still total more points at the end of the session.. I still match up again stronger players but the new system works against me because I may win some matches against higher levels but they will never be 3-0 wins as some one who plays the same level or lower. Bottom line is I just play my best every match and let the stats fall where they may . If I win top gun or MVP great...if i dont it aint the end of the world.


I understand what you are saying about the problem missing matches in singles vs teams. My advice is if you can't commit at least one night a week to the singles dont join.

Let me clarify that I know there is more fo life than a pool league and that sometimes things pop up unexpectedly..i am sure that most people in your area are like here. Most at friendly and understanding and are willing to work with you on scheduling problems. You will however encounter some that have a win however you can mentality and my advice is to remember those people cause what goes around comes around.

 

[DCS_SF]

I believe another reason I was always at the top...or close in top gun or MVP was due to the old 8 ball scoring system. It gave you points based on the skill level of the opponent you beat. As I usually played higher level players I received more points than some one who usually played guys their level or lower.

Theoretically I could lose a few more matches than you but still total more points at the end of the session.. I still match up again stronger players but the new system works against me because I may win some matches against higher levels but they will never be 3-0 wins as some one who plays the same level or lower. Bottom line is I just play my best every match and let the stats fall where they may . If I win top gun or MVP great...if i dont it aint the end of the world.


I understand what you are saying about the problem missing matches in singles vs teams. My advice is if you can't commit at least one night a week to the singles dont join.

Let me clarify that I know there is more fo life than a pool league and that sometimes things pop up unexpectedly..i am sure that most people in your area are like here. Most at friendly and understanding and are willing to work with you on scheduling problems. You will however encounter some that have a win however you can mentality and my advice is to remember those people cause what goes around comes around.

The MVP is calculated only based on how many points you won vs how many matches you played. It's your average points earned and it takes zero consideration into how many times you played past the minimum or what skill level you played.

As for not playing if you can't commit to once a week, I mean I generally can, but in a 15 week season there is bound to be 1-2 matches I can't make. Which on a team is doable since you can send an alternate. I don't have numbers for everyone in the league so rescheduling could get difficult. Just curious how it all works.

 

[Skippy27]

The MVP is calculated only based on how many points you won vs how many matches you played. It's your average points earned and it takes zero consideration into how many times you played past the minimum or what skill level you played.

As for not playing if you can't commit to once a week, I mean I generally can, but in a 15 week season there is bound to be 1-2 matches I can't make. Which on a team is doable since you can send an alternate. I don't have numbers for everyone in the league so rescheduling could get difficult. Just curious how it all works.

Yes, the new system is just as poorly designed as the previous. As he stated, if you play high players you will earn more points. The new way does not take into account the skill of your player so when you have a high player playing lower players, they are more likely to do well.

There needs to be some kind of compromise that considers your points based on the skill of the player you are playing as well.Something like if you play someone your level or within a level of you then you get 100% of the points. If you play someone 2 or more levels above/below you than there is a +/- based on that.
Example for a level 5 player:
They play a 7, they get 110% of their points.
They play a 6, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 5, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 4, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 3, they get 90% of their points.
They play a 2, they get 80% of their points.

A player that puts themselves up against low players and plays the minimum games needed to try to win the MVP in a TEAM competition contributed to me leaving a team.

 

[DCS_SF]

Yes, the new system is just as poorly designed as the previous. As he stated, if you play high players you will earn more points. The new way does not take into account the skill of your player so when you have a high player playing lower players, they are more likely to do well.

There needs to be some kind of compromise that considers your points based on the skill of the player you are playing as well.Something like if you play someone your level or withing a level of you then you get 100% of the points. If you play someone 2 or more levels up/below you then there is a +/- based on that.
Example for a level 5 player:
They play a 7, they get 110% of their points.
They play a 6, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 5, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 4, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 3, they get 90% of their points.
They play a 2, they get 80% of their points.

A player that puts themselves up against low players and plays the minimum games needed to try to win the MVP in a TEAM competition contributed to me leaving a team.

On our league you don't earn more points for playing high players. If I lose, 0 is added to my average, Hill 1 point is added to my average, win 2 points, and shut out 3 points. It has no regard to the skill level I played. It's simply match earned points divided by games played. Again, I don;t give a shit about MVP, but if that's how it works for singles then its dumb.

Regardless I agree with your second part, and there should be some way to regulate in a singles division. It's not a bad system idea you have.

 

[Buddy]

Same way in my APA league also

 

[lorider]

Yes, the new system is just as poorly designed as the previous. As he stated, if you play high players you will earn more points. The new way does not take into account the skill of your player so when you have a high player playing lower players, they are more likely to do well.

There needs to be some kind of compromise that considers your points based on the skill of the player you are playing as well.Something like if you play someone your level or within a level of you then you get 100% of the points. If you play someone 2 or more levels above/below you than there is a +/- based on that.
Example for a level 5 player:
They play a 7, they get 110% of their points.
They play a 6, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 5, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 4, they get 100% of their points.
They play a 3, they get 90% of their points.
They play a 2, they get 80% of their points.

A player that puts themselves up against low players and plays the minimum games needed to try to win the MVP in a TEAM competition contributed to me leaving a team.

I don't think the new system is poorly designed at all Skippy. I dont know why they changed the scoring system but it forces you to play your best if your team needs a 3-0 win . That right there helps eliminate sandbagging whereas under the old system you could drag out the match and win hill-hill and still get the win your team needed.

I realize playing stronger players will.never get me MVP or top gun like I used to get but I put the team first by matching up the way I do. Not being conceited or anything but being the captain and one of the strongest players on my team I feel its my duty to take a close loss or hopefully a win to keep the team in contention to win every night.

I do agree the system is flawed concerning not taking the skill level of your opponent into consideration but for a different reason.....your handicap. What I mean is a 5 beating the crap out of the worst 3 in league does not make you a 6 like what happened to one of my players. Yea I know he was probably on the thresh hold of being raised but that particular match should not be the reason you are raised. He eventually was lowered to a 5...where he really belonged but he was hurting the team until he was lowered.

Your MVP guy...every league has some like that lol

 

[jeremy8000]

I do agree the system is flawed concerning not taking the skill level of your opponent into consideration but for a different reason.....your handicap. What I mean is a 5 beating the crap out of the worst 3 in league does not make you a 6 like what happened to one of my players. Yea I know he was probably on the thresh hold of being raised but that particular match should not be the reason you are raised. He eventually was lowered to a 5...where he really belonged but he was hurting the team until he was lowered.

Any system devised will be flawed in one way or another, and to at least some degree exploitable by some method by those seeking to sandbag and keep a lower rating than they should. That said, if everyone actually marked innings and defensive shots, it works pretty well. Whether you play a high or low handicap, those games you win if scored properly will reflect how many innings where your intent to keep shooting it takes you on average to clear the table.

Failure to score defensive shots is, imho, likely keeping more people at lower handicap than they should be than those intentionally missing shots with that specific goal in mind. A big part of it is that most people don't understand how important marking them is, and a bigger part of it is that even more don't understand that someone who's been snookered and is just trying to make a legal hit should still be marked for a defensive shot if they weren't actively seeking to not only make a hit, but sink a ball (they should really relabel 'defensive' as 'non-performance').

 

[Skippy27]

I don't think the new system is poorly designed at all Skippy. I dont know why they changed the scoring system but it forces you to play your best if your team needs a 3-0 win . That right there helps eliminate sandbagging whereas under the old system you could drag out the match and win hill-hill and still get the win your team needed.

I realize playing stronger players will.never get me MVP or top gun like I used to get but I put the team first by matching up the way I do. Not being conceited or anything but being the captain and one of the strongest players on my team I feel its my duty to take a close loss or hopefully a win to keep the team in contention to win every night.

I do agree the system is flawed concerning not taking the skill level of your opponent into consideration but for a different reason.....your handicap. What I mean is a 5 beating the crap out of the worst 3 in league does not make you a 6 like what happened to one of my players. Yea I know he was probably on the thresh hold of being raised but that particular match should not be the reason you are raised. He eventually was lowered to a 5...where he really belonged but he was hurting the team until he was lowered.

Your MVP guy...every league has some like that lol

I agree with their scoring system and that it helps reduce the desire to sandbag, however the MVP system is jacked up. It should, without question reward players that play higher level players and punish them for for playing lower level players. This would also have the added benefit of reducing the desire to lose to inferior players trying to show you aren't really that good. Whether it is a fluke or not, if a 2 plays a 7, then they should get 140% of the 1, 2 or 3 points they earned.

Clearly any % of 0 is still 0, but as I said above if a 2 wins a game against a 7, they deserve 1.4 pts toward the MVP even if they lost the match and the 7 only deserves 1.2pts for beating them. The 2 accomplished something major for their team in earning that point and the 7 failed to do what they should have done (earned 3) and that is what MVP of any league should be looking for.

 

[Skippy27]

Any system devised will be flawed in one way or another, and to at least some degree exploitable by some method by those seeking to sandbag and keep a lower rating than they should. That said, if everyone actually marked innings and defensive shots, it works pretty well. Whether you play a high or low handicap, those games you win if scored properly will reflect how many innings where your intent to keep shooting it takes you on average to clear the table.

Failure to score defensive shots is, imho, likely keeping more people at lower handicap than they should be than those intentionally missing shots with that specific goal in mind. A big part of it is that most people don't understand how important marking them is, and a bigger part of it is that even more don't understand that someone who's been snookered and is just trying to make a legal hit should still be marked for a defensive shot if they weren't actively seeking to not only make a hit, but sink a ball (they should really relabel 'defensive' as 'non-performance').

This conversation has to do with the MVP system, not the skill rating system, though what you say is correct. Always accurately record the innings and the defensive shots and all will works itself out as it should be.

Intentional misses are something you have to watch for, especially at the SL 4, 5, and 6 level. 2's and 3's typically wont do it unless they are being instructed to do so, so you have to know them a little better and see how they and their captain respond after they shoot. Another thing to look for with 2's and 3's is their demeanor in shooting. If they shoot like they don't give a damn. They are most likely going to be the ones getting raised at higher level tournaments and *****ing about it because they "suddenly" are shooting so well when they take their time and concentrate. To get them raised in league all you can do is file a complaint about them and then let the LO see they shoot like that so they can make the adjustment.

 

[Celophanewrap]

We've never had a lot of that stuff that many of you have - MVP, Grand Slam, Rackless...
I know the APA offers patches and recognition for lots of this stuff. All we've ever really had
is Top Gun and the original APA Grand Prix tournament.
What's MVP? that is, I know Most Valuable Player - but what is it?