Installing Full Threaded Pins

[WilleeCue]

Ok....Why???

Mike, the pin is fully threaded ... the hole is not ... that is what I was saying.
A snug fit and good epoxy was my preferred method of installing 3/8 x 10 threaded pins.
I felt it was almost impossible to thread a hole, using a tap, perfectly concentric and true.

 

[Michael Webb]

Mike, the pin is fully threaded ... the hole is not ... that is what I was saying.
A snug fit and good epoxy was my preferred method of installing 3/8 x 10 threaded pins.
I felt it was almost impossible to thread a hole, using a tap, perfectly concentric and true.

I always try my best to respect everyone and even though I respect you. I don't respect that method. It's just not logical to me. My screws bottom. I use 2 taps. Pretty simple. But I'm glad it works for you. The flip side to the coin is! How do you make a shaft that spins and rolls straight based on your answer of installing the joint screw? Doesn't make sense.

 

[WilleeCue]

I always try my best to respect everyone and even though I respect you. I don't respect that method. It's just not logical to me. My screws bottom. I use 2 taps. Pretty simple. But I'm glad it works for you. The flip side to the coin is! How do you make a shaft that spins and rolls straight based on your answer of installing the joint screw? Doesn't make sense.

When the pin is true and straight in the butt, making a shaft for the that butt is straight forward ... and I see your point ... if I feel a tap can not thread a true hole then how can I tap the shaft and have it come out straight.
I guess because I always taped the shaft while it was oversized and unfinished ... then used a maintenance pin or carbide sanding mandrel to finish it up to size.
The maintenance pin or carbide sanding mandrel would center the same as a pin on the butt.

Worked for me but I do understand different things work better for different cue makers and that is a good thing.

Willee

 

[cueman]

I always try my best to respect everyone and even though I respect you. I don't respect that method. It's just not logical to me. My screws bottom. I use 2 taps. Pretty simple. But I'm glad it works for you. The flip side to the coin is! How do you make a shaft that spins and rolls straight based on your answer of installing the joint screw? Doesn't make sense.

You make a good point here with that that last question. But we all know the shaft threads have play in them so they are not as critical as getting the pin straight. I do not have a dog in this fight as I don;t use that method and have not sold a cue with that method, but just wanted to give a historical account on this matter.
When Dennis Dieckman saw the brass insert thread of that time were not concentric inside and outside. So he made a mandrel tight to the inside threads and cut the outside threads flat. Then bored a tight fitting hole for that to press into and that made his shaft inserts pretty much perfectly concentric. Then he did the same thing to the butt pins. I have no idea if his pins held up or not in the long run, but a lot of people saw this as a way to solve the concentric problem. I do know this, there are epoxy glues out there that are gray in color that I have never personally used in cuemaking that hold metal at temps our normal cuemaking epoxies break down at.
Some questions to consider:
So is it the method that is bad or the particular glue being used?
Did the pins you removed that came loose have the flat ground on the side?
Were the internal grooves placed?
If not it could be the method.
Was the glue gray?
If not maybe it was the glue.

 

[Michael Webb]

When the pin is true and straight in the butt, making a shaft for the that butt is straight forward ... and I see your point ... if I feel a tap can not thread a true hole then how can I tap the shaft and have it come out straight.
I guess because I always taped the shaft while it was oversized and unfinished ... then used a maintenance pin or carbide sanding mandrel to finish it up to size.
The maintenance pin or carbide sanding mandrel would center the same as a pin on the butt.

Worked for me but I do understand different things work better for different cue makers and that is a good thing.

Willee

Thank you Willee

 

[JoeyInCali]

When the pin is true and straight in the butt, making a shaft for the that butt is straight forward ... and I see your point ... if I feel a tap can not thread a true hole then how can I tap the shaft and have it come out straight.
I guess because I always taped the shaft while it was oversized and unfinished ... then used a maintenance pin or carbide sanding mandrel to finish it up to size.
The maintenance pin or carbide sanding mandrel would center the same as a pin on the butt.

Worked for me but I do understand different things work better for different cue makers and that is a good thing.

Willee

The mandrel still does not solve a badly tapped hole or a hole not concentric to the outside.
It just fixes the OD of the joint collars of the shafts to match the butt's collar ( if they are matching set ) imo .
They will still wobble badly in the middle and tip if the threaded holes aren't good.

I know of a local maker who takes a final pass on his shafts while they are jointed to the matching butt.

 

[WilleeCue]

The mandrel still does not solve a badly tapped hole or a hole not concentric to the outside.
It just fixes the OD of the joint collars of the shafts to match the butt's collar ( if they are matching set ) imo .
They will still wobble badly in the middle and tip if the threaded holes aren't good.

I know of a local maker who takes a final pass on his shafts while they are jointed to the matching butt.

Joey ... that would make the cue true and straight only with that shaft and only until the joint wore down some ... wouldn't it also make it hard to fit a second shaft to the butt since the final pass would only mask any joint problems?
Why would you need a final pass like that if the joint construction was true to start with?

I guess I am missing something in the fine art of precision cue making as I dont recall having much wobble and shaft run-out problems with the method I used for shaft and joint pin work.
It was never an issue unless I did something wrong fitting the pin or tapping the joint.

Perhaps I was just to ignorant to notice the problems this thread is talking about.
I would not rule that possibility out as I learned a lot about the art of cue making but I just never had enough time to learn everything.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey ... that would make the cue true and straight only with that shaft and only until the joint wore down some ... wouldn't it also make it hard to fit a second shaft to the butt since the final pass would only mask any joint problems?
Why would you need a final pass like that if the joint construction was true to start with?

I guess I am missing something in the fine art of precision cue making as I dont recall having much wobble and shaft run-out problems with the method I used for shaft and joint pin work.
It was never an issue unless I did something wrong fitting the pin or tapping the joint.

Perhaps I was just to ignorant to notice the problems this thread is talking about.
I would not rule that possibility out as I learned a lot about the art of cue making but I just never had enough time to learn everything.

Yes.
Sorry, that wasn't me.
That's another maker here.
I definitely do not agree with his method.


I install joint screw and thread the shafts after the final pass.
I just keep the shaft collar .002" over the butt's collar final size then match them.

 

[qbilder]

Perhaps I was just to ignorant to notice the problems this thread is talking about.

Nope, that's not the case. You didn't notice the problems because you never had the the problems. I have always been of the belief that it's not how you do things, but rather how well you do them. If you turn left & I turn right but we both arrive at the same place, then why does one of us have to be wrong?

 

[cueman]

Nope, that's not the case. You didn't notice the problems because you never had the the problems. I have always been of the belief that it's not how you do things, but rather how well you do them. If you turn left & I turn right but we both arrive at the same place, then why does one of us have to be wrong?

One might think his way is better because he gets there faster thus saving money on gas and time. But the other driver thinks his way is better as it provides a more enjoyable route. I guess it starts with priorities and we as humans all have different priorities. I know people who hate to drive in interstate traffic and always take side roads. Others only like to take routes that are familiar to them. So I agree with you it does not matter much which way you take as long as you arrive safely and on time. Those that take the slower route just need to allow more time, but they arrive feeling less stressed than the other route would have taken them. Enjoying the trip down Cuemaking Lane should be the goal we all share.

 

[Michael Webb]

Nope, that's not the case. You didn't notice the problems because you never had the the problems. I have always been of the belief that it's not how you do things, but rather how well you do them. If you turn left & I turn right but we both arrive at the same place, then why does one of us have to be wrong?

That is a very good point.

 

[Michael Webb]

I read the entire thread again. At least the good part for the new guys is. Do it anyway you can. In time, if it doesn't work and your cue is out there. Don't worry. Someone else will fix it.

 

[conetip]

I was reading about the pin being glues into a non taped hole and then the various responses to this. I saw an interesting situation at my work place. They have a material that requires a threaded insert to be glued into place. Previously, these have had the material tapped and a loose threaded insert aligned on a fixture and glued into place. These fail over time, with the threaded portion breaking out of the material. The newer way, was to make a series of left and right hand threads over crossing each other. looking a bit like a knurl, but with a precision diameter still there. The hole was only 0.05mm larger than the insert and it glued a pushed into place. They did not require a fixture to position them, and have outlasted the previous way of making these parts. The application is in a high speed form moulding machine and it is pushing down on the material all day everyday like a cue hits a ball. If the glue can bond to the wood and the fastener it should work just fine for a cue, assuming that the thread form is actually concentric to the outside diameter of the threaded rod. I have come across threaded rod where this is not the case at all. In that situation, using the outer of the thread bar for the alignment will result in an off centre thread form still.
Neil

 

[dzcues]

Mike, the pin is fully threaded ... the hole is not ... that is what I was saying.
A snug fit and good epoxy was my preferred method of installing 3/8 x 10 threaded pins.
I felt it was almost impossible to thread a hole, using a tap, perfectly concentric and true.

A cuemaker who lives in my area installs his 5/16-14 pins the same way. Over time, the act of tightening the shaft onto the butt slowly draws the pin out of the butt until it bottoms out inside the shaft. (if you think about it, the shaft is working as a "pin puller".) At that point, the cue starts to acquire a "buzz".

Cuemaker denies that he presses & epoxies the pin but it's pretty obvious when I pull the pin & see absolutely no wood in the pin's threads.

I pull the pin by installing spacers between the butt & shaft & continue tightening the shaft. The pins come out pretty easily once the initial bond is broken.

 

[Michael Webb]

A cuemaker who lives in my area installs his 5/16-14 pins the same way. Over time, the act of tightening the shaft onto the butt slowly draws the pin out of the butt until it bottoms out inside the shaft. (if you think about it, the shaft is working as a "pin puller".) At that point, the cue starts to acquire a "buzz".

Cuemaker denies that he presses & epoxies the pin but it's pretty obvious when I pull the pin & see absolutely no wood in the pin's threads.

I pull the pin by installing spacers between the butt & shaft & continue tightening the shaft. The pins come out pretty easily once the initial bond is broken.

Uh Oh
:dance::dance::dance::dance:

 

[whammo57]

Ok....Why???

I have found that it you bottom out the pin it will cock to one side..... I always back it off a little to allow it set in the threads and center up

Kim

 

[Michael Webb]

I have found that it you bottom out the pin it will cock to one side..... I always back it off a little to allow it set in the threads and center up

Kim

Without a bottoming tap. I'm with ya. But you do thread the hole for the screw right?
I always forget to tell you. I sure like that cue in your sig. Nice job.

 

[whammo57]

Without a bottoming tap. I'm with ya. But you do thread the hole for the screw right?
I always forget to tell you. I sure like that cue in your sig. Nice job.

Thank you

I do thread the hole but only about the bottom 3/4 of an inch.....the rest of the hole is a slip fit.... I hold the pin straight with the tail stock until the epoxy sets


just my method

Kim

 

[cueman]

Thank you

I do thread the hole but only about the bottom 3/4 of an inch.....the rest of the hole is a slip fit.... I hold the pin straight with the tail stock until the epoxy sets


just my method

Kim

That basically turns your outside threads into the alignment shoulder like some pins have with a few threads in the bottom. I like your method better than just pressing it in all the way.

 

[whammo57]

That basically turns your outside threads into the alignment shoulder like some pins have with a few threads in the bottom. I like your method better than just pressing it in all the way.

I do use a bottom tap but I still back off the bottom just a little........... also I tap the threads several times so the threads are loose ....... the screw can wiggle so I hold it centered with the tail stock center............ works for me

Kim