RKC is just trying to get us to think for ourselves.
This type of discussion also "stirs the pot that makes for a good stew" of ideas.
This type of discussion also "stirs the pot that makes for a good stew" of ideas.
Everyone complains about pool just needing a major sponsor....
- Thread starter realkingcobra
- Start date
To the OP thread title Q...not me.
Did auto racing first have sponsors or drivers?
Pool is boring to watch for the average banger.
What's the funnest pool tournament to watch?
Imo, the Mosconi cup. Why? Cause the Europeans are raucus.
The most entertaining pool match I've ever seen was Fats vs. Mosconi. Fats was great and entertaining.
I search out matches of Strickland to see his antics.
Show me a match w Fats acting that way playing Strickland. I'd pay per view that.
The professional pool ppl have nuetered pool by demanding it be like church and in turn made it boring.
If I could see a match like Fats and Mosconi every week I'd subscribe, pay money.
Mic the players. If players could talk, taunt a little, give insight to shot decisions, etc...be more animated it would do the world of pool great.
Public interest would go up, sponsors would follow.
Did auto racing first have sponsors or drivers?
Pool is boring to watch for the average banger.
What's the funnest pool tournament to watch?
Imo, the Mosconi cup. Why? Cause the Europeans are raucus.
The most entertaining pool match I've ever seen was Fats vs. Mosconi. Fats was great and entertaining.
I search out matches of Strickland to see his antics.
Show me a match w Fats acting that way playing Strickland. I'd pay per view that.
The professional pool ppl have nuetered pool by demanding it be like church and in turn made it boring.
If I could see a match like Fats and Mosconi every week I'd subscribe, pay money.
Mic the players. If players could talk, taunt a little, give insight to shot decisions, etc...be more animated it would do the world of pool great.
Public interest would go up, sponsors would follow.
The Pot is calling the Kettle Black!
Attachments
I posted this in what's hurting pool as well....
Your both looking at pool the wrong way, you guys keep thinking this is an American game exclusively, it's not. PRO football, baseball, basketball, bowling, volley ball, and many other sports are ALL AMERICAN sports.
PRO boxing, MMA, tennis, golf, soccer, .... those are international sports, and guess what....so is pool.
The problem is, we here in America still think we control this game...LOL How many millions of people world wide do you think there is that play pool on a regular basis? Belive me, it's in the millions....and yet, the world still can't put together 128 world class top tier Pro's to represent this game????? So that the viewers that would PAY to watch these players playing the best they can against each other in world class tournaments ..... could take place on a regular basis.....no, that's nust a crazy idea....right. Well, that's exactly what it's going to take if anyone expects a sponsor to jump on board with THEIR money that's for sure, and i guarantee you they won't give a damn who a league player is...or a dead money tournament player either.
You want your kids off the couch and outside doing things, stop buying them all the latest vidoe games. If the kids are overweight and could use some exercise, i guarantee you so does mom and dad....so consider a joint effort when it comes to going outside for some exercise....and don't just tell them to get out of the house.for a while and give the video games a break....thats why so many kids are getting in trouble today....the rest of the world is not responsible for watching over your kids while you sit your ass on the couch and take a break while who knows what your kids are doing.
Don't worry about the youth playing pool today getting involved....not going to happen....UNLESS you get the PARENTS involved as well.
Your both looking at pool the wrong way, you guys keep thinking this is an American game exclusively, it's not. PRO football, baseball, basketball, bowling, volley ball, and many other sports are ALL AMERICAN sports.
PRO boxing, MMA, tennis, golf, soccer, .... those are international sports, and guess what....so is pool.
The problem is, we here in America still think we control this game...LOL How many millions of people world wide do you think there is that play pool on a regular basis? Belive me, it's in the millions....and yet, the world still can't put together 128 world class top tier Pro's to represent this game????? So that the viewers that would PAY to watch these players playing the best they can against each other in world class tournaments ..... could take place on a regular basis.....no, that's nust a crazy idea....right. Well, that's exactly what it's going to take if anyone expects a sponsor to jump on board with THEIR money that's for sure, and i guarantee you they won't give a damn who a league player is...or a dead money tournament player either.
You want your kids off the couch and outside doing things, stop buying them all the latest vidoe games. If the kids are overweight and could use some exercise, i guarantee you so does mom and dad....so consider a joint effort when it comes to going outside for some exercise....and don't just tell them to get out of the house.for a while and give the video games a break....thats why so many kids are getting in trouble today....the rest of the world is not responsible for watching over your kids while you sit your ass on the couch and take a break while who knows what your kids are doing.
Don't worry about the youth playing pool today getting involved....not going to happen....UNLESS you get the PARENTS involved as well.
A licensed psychiatrist?
What sponsors and how would they make any money?
Pool just needs mainstream sponsorship, such as Soft drinks, Energy drinks, Sports clothing, Motel chains, Rental Car companies, etc. The pros use these things and with viewership and great ranking those players will give their sponsors major advertisement while boosting their own personal fandom and name recognition in the mainstream world.
Why does anyone sponsor anything?
There's not enough of a following and exposure for those companies, it's money down the drain.
How many here are gonna buy the pay per view Mayweather vs McGregor?
Are there sponsors? Of course, why? Cause it's entertainment.
If pool had a lick of interest outside of those passionate for the game like that we wouldn't be having this discussion.
It's boring.
I love pool and I still watch v little.
Sponsorship doesn't require a direct connection but probably at least one of a few like:
1) Where there's a close tie-in with product, e.g. Nike for Basketball, as all the kids playing basketball need new sneakers every 6 months. [Pool lacks expensive consumables, so this seems somewhat unlikely]
2) Where there's a close demographic correlation (e.g. back in the day when Tobacco sponsored Nascar, as for whatever reasons their fans were far bigger smokers than the average). Not sure what the correlation would be for pool; not sure what the fan demographic looks like most places? Especially since I think it was mentioned we must exclude alcohol and casinos.
3) Where there are huge numbers of eyeballs you can buy time for en mass, e.g. imagine how many people watch NFL, where you see the big sponsors you mention. Even nascar - Comcast is a huge sponsor, yet I see no real connection other than lots of eyes. [I don't know all the places you can watch pool but I suspect there are 2-3 orders of magnitudes difference in crowd sizes here versus the usual homes of the big sponsors mentioned above.]
A lot of companies do not insist on direct tie-ins, they just want name recognition. They don't even require they see increases in sales directly attributable, if they can show a million people saw their name for minutes at a time.
If I owned a big company, let's say someone making cellphones (I don't), had a few hundred million dollars in advertising to spend (I don't, stop calling!), I really fail to see how it punches any of the buttons I need punched. You can't deliver huge numbers of eyeballs, repeat customers in related sales, nor is it obvious pool players use or can afford phones any more than anyone else, especially places I can buy more easily, like at a baseball game, or football game.
If I put my logo on some pro's shirt, how many people can you promise me will actually see it?
If I become the official sponsor of the USA Billiard Team to the Olympics.... oh, wait, all sorts of problems in that thought.
Sponsorship doesn't require a direct connection but probably at least one of a few like:
1) Where there's a close tie-in with product, e.g. Nike for Basketball, as all the kids playing basketball need new sneakers every 6 months. [Pool lacks expensive consumables, so this seems somewhat unlikely]
2) Where there's a close demographic correlation (e.g. back in the day when Tobacco sponsored Nascar, as for whatever reasons their fans were far bigger smokers than the average). Not sure what the correlation would be for pool; not sure what the fan demographic looks like most places? Especially since I think it was mentioned we must exclude alcohol and casinos.
3) Where there are huge numbers of eyeballs you can buy time for en mass, e.g. imagine how many people watch NFL, where you see the big sponsors you mention. Even nascar - Comcast is a huge sponsor, yet I see no real connection other than lots of eyes. [I don't know all the places you can watch pool but I suspect there are 2-3 orders of magnitudes difference in crowd sizes here versus the usual homes of the big sponsors mentioned above.]
A lot of companies do not insist on direct tie-ins, they just want name recognition. They don't even require they see increases in sales directly attributable, if they can show a million people saw their name for minutes at a time.
If I owned a big company, let's say someone making cellphones (I don't), had a few hundred million dollars in advertising to spend (I don't, stop calling!), I really fail to see how it punches any of the buttons I need punched. You can't deliver huge numbers of eyeballs, repeat customers in related sales, nor is it obvious pool players use or can afford phones any more than anyone else, especially places I can buy more easily, like at a baseball game, or football game.
If I put my logo on some pro's shirt, how many people can you promise me will actually see it?
If I become the official sponsor of the USA Billiard Team to the Olympics.... oh, wait, all sorts of problems in that thought.
Now you're getting closer to solving the problem
This is a recent post of mine that was written specifically in response to someone's post suggesting that Red Bull would be a good sponsor for pool and that they would benefit from sponsoring pool, but I think it also does a good job addressing what this thread is about, sponsorship in general, and sponsorship of pool in particular:
"Whether it be in pool or anything else, progress is dependent on good decision making, and good decision making is dependent on being able to recognize and accept truths no matter how ugly we may find those truths to be, and then having the ability to deal with reality no matter how much we may hate the reality. (On a side note, if everybody was actually capable of doing this we would only have one political party but a large portion of people simply aren’t and never will be capable of doing this).
Sponsors are worried about three basic things:
1. Will I get a good return on my dollars spent?
2. Even if I can get a positive return on my dollars, is there another area with another group of people where I can get an even better return?
3. Will my association with this sport or group cause damage to my company or brand?
Let’s break these down. “Will I get a good return on my dollars spent?” This depends mostly on not just how many people the sponsor can reach, but on how many people they can reach that are likely to use the type of product or service they sell (likely to use it because they will have use for it, they will enjoy it, they can afford it, etc). When people talk about all these “millions of pool players” it is the dumbest thing ever. First off, the vast majority of those aren’t “pool players” at all. They are people that take a date to a pool hall once or twice a year, or that go with coworkers once or twice a year to drink and socialize.
But regardless of how many there are, how many can you actually reach? About the most I can think of is 5,000-10,000 at one of the yearly national league events. Aside from that about the most you can reach is about 1,000 of them in the best free live streams, or maybe a few thousand in a couple of the online or print billiard publications. Do you really think some big national brand like Red Bull needs or wants to market to 10,000 people at best? It isn’t worth their time or money. The truth of the matter is that there really isn’t a ton of pool players, there are even fewer that get together all in one place to compete, and fewer yet that want to watch pool whether on TV or a stream or anywhere else. The fact of the matter is that pool is a fringe sport to begin with (and that is being kind if we are honest), and that most people can’t stand to watch--even most of those that like to participate in it. We may hate all that, but it’s still the truth. Sponsors can easily reach far more people by targeting other groups or sports.
Let’s say Red Bull has a 10% profit margin. Let’s say they put up $10,000 to sponsor the APA Nationals in Vegas. Out of the 10,000 people at nationals, they have to get $100,000 of business because of their sponsorship just to break even (because they only have a 10% profit margin). Out of the 10,000 players at APA Nationals, how many do you think actually become consistent Red Bull drinkers just because Red Bull sponsored the event? I would guess they probably get a few hundred to try it once or twice that wouldn’t have otherwise, and maybe 20 that become consistent Red Bull customers that never would have otherwise. Think that a couple hundred one time purchases and then the ongoing purchases from 20 people adds up to $100,000 worth of business? Fat chance. Even a measly $10,000 investment wouldn’t even begin to be worth it to Red Bull. It would mostly be lost money. They aren’t in business to throw away money.
So problem 1 is that you can’t reach very many pool players to begin with. Problem 2 is what percentage of those that you can reach are actually likely to use your product? As a group pool players don’t tend to have a lot of disposable income so that isn’t particularly appealing to any potential sponsor no matter who the sponsor is. And pool these days tends to be an older demographic, which isn’t the demographic that tends to use say energy drinks. Nor is pool a sport that really requires lots of energy, so again, an energy drink just isn’t that great of a fit.
Whoever sponsors or advertises in pool needs to be a product or service that tends to be used by older out of shape people that don’t have much disposable income. What fits that bill? Almost nothing does, and hence another major problem. About the only things that pool players make a good market for are pool products/services for obvious reasons, and cigarettes and alcohol as they tend to like to smoke and drink more than the average population. All of which kind of addresses question number 2 above, and the answer is that sponsors can almost always find a better return on their dollar somewhere else no matter what the product.
Then comes #3, “will the association with pool hurt their brand”. Let’s face it, pool is full of sleazy people, low lifes, people with criminal records, drug users, etc, all far more than is average for the rest of the population. And much of society has a low opinion of pool, and pool culture, and the people in pool as a result. So will a brand’s association with pool hurt their brand? Yes, absolutely, in most cases they will suffer far more than they will gain from that association. Now this is where several people invariably pipe up and say “but…but..but football and poker and x, y, and z have sleazy people in them too and they still have big money sponsors”. True, but pool probably still has a higher percentage of crappy people in it than they do. That is certainly the perception anyway, and ultimately it is the perception that counts. But the main difference is that yes the sleazy factor in football and poker etc does do some harm to the sponsors, but it is far, far outweighed by the benefits the sponsors get. Small harm, huge benefit, and on net they come out way ahead. Pool on the other hand is big harm small benefit which on net is a nightmare.
These are the facts, as much as we may hate them. If we are smart, we deal with reality and make the changes necessary so that we can attract sponsors. The biggest way we can do that is by attracting fans who want to watch, and lots and lots of them. This will require dramatically changing the game, possibly so much so that it no longer even resembles what we currently know as the game/s of pool because it its current form nobody wants to watch, not even the players. None of our current games or formats will ever work. I don’t know what exactly will work, but many decades of history has proven what won’t work. A smaller factor but one which will also almost certainly need some modification also, is how pool and pool players and pool culture is perceived by the public—i.e cleaning up the game. Again, you can hate this as much as you want to, but that still doesn’t change what is true. We simply don’t offer enough benefit to be able to offset that baggage like other sports can get away with.
All this is in regards to the US market. Things may be a little different in pool markets in other parts of the world."
"Whether it be in pool or anything else, progress is dependent on good decision making, and good decision making is dependent on being able to recognize and accept truths no matter how ugly we may find those truths to be, and then having the ability to deal with reality no matter how much we may hate the reality. (On a side note, if everybody was actually capable of doing this we would only have one political party but a large portion of people simply aren’t and never will be capable of doing this).
Sponsors are worried about three basic things:
1. Will I get a good return on my dollars spent?
2. Even if I can get a positive return on my dollars, is there another area with another group of people where I can get an even better return?
3. Will my association with this sport or group cause damage to my company or brand?
Let’s break these down. “Will I get a good return on my dollars spent?” This depends mostly on not just how many people the sponsor can reach, but on how many people they can reach that are likely to use the type of product or service they sell (likely to use it because they will have use for it, they will enjoy it, they can afford it, etc). When people talk about all these “millions of pool players” it is the dumbest thing ever. First off, the vast majority of those aren’t “pool players” at all. They are people that take a date to a pool hall once or twice a year, or that go with coworkers once or twice a year to drink and socialize.
But regardless of how many there are, how many can you actually reach? About the most I can think of is 5,000-10,000 at one of the yearly national league events. Aside from that about the most you can reach is about 1,000 of them in the best free live streams, or maybe a few thousand in a couple of the online or print billiard publications. Do you really think some big national brand like Red Bull needs or wants to market to 10,000 people at best? It isn’t worth their time or money. The truth of the matter is that there really isn’t a ton of pool players, there are even fewer that get together all in one place to compete, and fewer yet that want to watch pool whether on TV or a stream or anywhere else. The fact of the matter is that pool is a fringe sport to begin with (and that is being kind if we are honest), and that most people can’t stand to watch--even most of those that like to participate in it. We may hate all that, but it’s still the truth. Sponsors can easily reach far more people by targeting other groups or sports.
Let’s say Red Bull has a 10% profit margin. Let’s say they put up $10,000 to sponsor the APA Nationals in Vegas. Out of the 10,000 people at nationals, they have to get $100,000 of business because of their sponsorship just to break even (because they only have a 10% profit margin). Out of the 10,000 players at APA Nationals, how many do you think actually become consistent Red Bull drinkers just because Red Bull sponsored the event? I would guess they probably get a few hundred to try it once or twice that wouldn’t have otherwise, and maybe 20 that become consistent Red Bull customers that never would have otherwise. Think that a couple hundred one time purchases and then the ongoing purchases from 20 people adds up to $100,000 worth of business? Fat chance. Even a measly $10,000 investment wouldn’t even begin to be worth it to Red Bull. It would mostly be lost money. They aren’t in business to throw away money.
So problem 1 is that you can’t reach very many pool players to begin with. Problem 2 is what percentage of those that you can reach are actually likely to use your product? As a group pool players don’t tend to have a lot of disposable income so that isn’t particularly appealing to any potential sponsor no matter who the sponsor is. And pool these days tends to be an older demographic, which isn’t the demographic that tends to use say energy drinks. Nor is pool a sport that really requires lots of energy, so again, an energy drink just isn’t that great of a fit.
Whoever sponsors or advertises in pool needs to be a product or service that tends to be used by older out of shape people that don’t have much disposable income. What fits that bill? Almost nothing does, and hence another major problem. About the only things that pool players make a good market for are pool products/services for obvious reasons, and cigarettes and alcohol as they tend to like to smoke and drink more than the average population. All of which kind of addresses question number 2 above, and the answer is that sponsors can almost always find a better return on their dollar somewhere else no matter what the product.
Then comes #3, “will the association with pool hurt their brand”. Let’s face it, pool is full of sleazy people, low lifes, people with criminal records, drug users, etc, all far more than is average for the rest of the population. And much of society has a low opinion of pool, and pool culture, and the people in pool as a result. So will a brand’s association with pool hurt their brand? Yes, absolutely, in most cases they will suffer far more than they will gain from that association. Now this is where several people invariably pipe up and say “but…but..but football and poker and x, y, and z have sleazy people in them too and they still have big money sponsors”. True, but pool probably still has a higher percentage of crappy people in it than they do. That is certainly the perception anyway, and ultimately it is the perception that counts. But the main difference is that yes the sleazy factor in football and poker etc does do some harm to the sponsors, but it is far, far outweighed by the benefits the sponsors get. Small harm, huge benefit, and on net they come out way ahead. Pool on the other hand is big harm small benefit which on net is a nightmare.
These are the facts, as much as we may hate them. If we are smart, we deal with reality and make the changes necessary so that we can attract sponsors. The biggest way we can do that is by attracting fans who want to watch, and lots and lots of them. This will require dramatically changing the game, possibly so much so that it no longer even resembles what we currently know as the game/s of pool because it its current form nobody wants to watch, not even the players. None of our current games or formats will ever work. I don’t know what exactly will work, but many decades of history has proven what won’t work. A smaller factor but one which will also almost certainly need some modification also, is how pool and pool players and pool culture is perceived by the public—i.e cleaning up the game. Again, you can hate this as much as you want to, but that still doesn’t change what is true. We simply don’t offer enough benefit to be able to offset that baggage like other sports can get away with.
All this is in regards to the US market. Things may be a little different in pool markets in other parts of the world."
Now you're getting closer to solving the problem
W out those eyeballs the rest is moot.
Pool isn't lucky in any way. There's no answers to your questions. Smart money would have found them by now if there were. If we could have the excuse, like tennis, to dress 17 year old hot chicks up in tights and prance them around on courts, we'd have a chance. But just by sheer coincidence we're not lucky, and a pool player would not be expected to wear that to play pool, like a beach volleyball player would. Half the world are pervs so it's a huge market we can't tap into. And beyond that there's just no other way which is proven by the fact that no genius money man has said to himself "I bet if we promote pool events and sponsor them we could reach our target audience".
Trust me, I'm getting closer to answering my own questions, but there's a lot of people that won't like my plan....because it will actually make sense and work, it's just going to be excluding a lot of players that have enjoyed playing the best without having to earn the rights to.
There are a few Billiards Players worth "watching".
If that's what you think will promote Cue Sports.
If that's what you think will promote Cue Sports.
Attachments
I'm not trying to be disrespectful or mean but I think that is the exact backwards thinking that has pool in the same place.
Your putting the cart before the horse.
When nascar started it wasn't sponsors that made it what it is today. It was the mass appeal that made it what it is.
What came first the fan or the sponsor? Answer-the fan.
The sponsors see ppl enjoying it, the popularity and the potential. The game of pool just doesn't have that.
Something has to rock the billiard world and bring it back to the mainstream. Which imo is an incredible task w all the other distractions or opportunities to entertain oneself.