Something Your Teacher Can Teach You...

Bobkitty

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Silver Member
Look at the 2 ball on the end rail. How would you get shape on it? Here is a little video that I learned from my instructor. Just a little bit of "force follow" CB, hitting the rail first, enough to get shape. https://youtu.be/Y7cyXUkm8L4 Just a reason why you should find and learn from a valuable pool instructor. You can always learn more than you know.
 
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You mean rail first?

denwhit said:
Look at the 2 ball on the end rail. How would you get shape on it? Here is a little video that I learned from my instructor. Just a little bit of "force follow" CB enough to get shape. https://youtu.be/Y7cyXUkm8L4 Just a reason why you should find and learn from a valuable pool instructor. You can always learn more than you know.
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Tony_in_MD said:
You mean rail first?
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I changed the OP to mention that I did hit the rail first. Still take a bit of force follow CB to go down the table without hitting the obstruction balls. I am sure you know this but how many others do not?
 
That's a nice shot, but I would use low right, hit the ob directly, and let the cb hug the rail all the way down the table. Just a matter of preference, I guess.
 
FranCrimi said:
That's a nice shot, but I would use low right, hit the ob directly, and let the cb hug the rail all the way down the table. Just a matter of preference, I guess.
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This is the shot that I was thinking. It looks like he pulled that shot off due to fairly new cloth maybe?
 
FranCrimi said:
That's a nice shot, but I would use low right, hit the ob directly, and let the cb hug the rail all the way down the table. Just a matter of preference, I guess.
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Yeah, I like low here also -- for me it seems easier to control and more consistent to execute. But top spin shots do look nice.
 
FranCrimi said:
That's a nice shot, but I would use low right, hit the ob directly, and let the cb hug the rail all the way down the table. Just a matter of preference, I guess.
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True a couple of ways to hit the shot but there are many shots using FF that we would use if we thought about it. Just something nice to know....
 
denwhit said:
Look at the 2 ball on the end rail. How would you get shape on it? Here is a little video that I learned from my instructor. Just a little bit of "force follow" CB, hitting the rail first, enough to get shape. https://youtu.be/Y7cyXUkm8L4 Just a reason why you should find and learn from a valuable pool instructor. You can always learn more than you know.
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Dr. Dave refers to that as rail dribble. The rolling cue ball does not lose momentum and continues back into the rail. Handy but hard to control accurately. You hit ball first and has to be a pretty full hit.
 
denwhit said:
Look at the 2 ball on the end rail. How would you get shape on it? Here is a little video that I learned from my instructor. Just a little bit of "force follow" CB, hitting the rail first, enough to get shape. https://youtu.be/Y7cyXUkm8L4 Just a reason why you should find and learn from a valuable pool instructor. You can always learn more than you know.
Click to expand...

Dr. Dave refers to that as rail dribble. The rolling cue ball does not lose momentum and continues back into the rail. Handy but hard to control accurately. You hit ball first and has to be a pretty full hit. He shows several examples and uses of it in his DVD series.
 
skipbales said:
Dr. Dave refers to that as rail dribble. The rolling cue ball does not lose momentum and continues back into the rail. Handy but hard to control accurately. You hit ball first and has to be a pretty full hit. He shows several examples and uses of it in his DVD series.
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We call it force-follow and there are many examples where it is the only shot available to get the CB to where it needs to be.
 
denwhit said:
We call it force-follow and there are many examples where it is the only shot available to get the CB to where it needs to be.
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I mean he calls it rail dribble when you use force follow on a ball close to the rail, like a hanger, so the cue ball rebounds back then surges forward again. It is just the double pump into the rail which kills the cue ball and keeps it from bouncing back which refers to as the dribble part.

Yes, he demonstrates several uses. I try it, as you say, when it is the only good option but it is not a shot I am great at. :embarrassed2:

The most important part of this shot for me was learning not to hit the hanger too squarely if I wanted the cue ball to rebound back down table. Anything over 3/4 ball hit and it stalls out.
 
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skipbales said:
I mean he calls it rail dribble when you use force follow on a ball close to the rail, like a hanger, so the cue ball rebounds back then surges forward again. It is just the double pump into the rail which kills the cue ball and keeps it from bouncing back which re refers to as the dribble part.

Yes, he demonstrates several uses. I do it, as you say, when it is the only good option but it is not a shot I am great at. :embarrassed2:

The most important part of this shot for me was learning not to hit the hanger too squarely if I wanted the cue ball to rebound back down table. Anything over 3/4 ball hit and it stalls out.
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My teacher knows dozens of shots where it is the only way to get the CB to certain spots. He can use it for perfect position, bust out balls, perform safeties, etc. You don't want the 9 or 10 ball anywhere near a pocket or it will be gone. I posted this because there are a lot of pool players hating this shot because it occurs when they don't want it to for ball in jaws. But, it can be very useful to know.
 
FranCrimi said:
Is it force follow if you hit a rail first?
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I think force follow is the CB spinning forward like a car burning out on the tires, peeling rubber. If the CB does this and hits the OB first or the rail first, it's still "force-follow".
 
denwhit said:
I think force follow is the CB spinning forward like a car burning out on the tires, peeling rubber. If the CB does this and hits the OB first or the rail first, it's still "force-follow".
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I agree in shots where the cb doubles the rail for example, because it's driving forward in the same direction. But I'm wondering if in your rail-first case, the cb would have to keep driving itself into the same rail for it to be force follow. But that's not what happened. I think the spin changed direction.
 
Overspin

denwhit said:
I think force follow is the CB spinning forward like a car burning out on the tires, peeling rubber. If the CB does this and hits the OB first or the rail first, it's still "force-follow".
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Here is a link to Mike Page's test for possible over spin. http://www.sb8ball.com/Videos/Mobile/iv0033.html. The test shows it is almost impossible to actually get the ball to spin forward faster than it rolls. The tiny bit of over spin he is able to generate is almost not measurable and would wear off in one inch of forward travel as the ball reaches full forward roll. The idea that the cue ball "burns rubber" spinning forward is a widely believed concept and taught by many professional instructors. But scientifically it does not prove out. I questioned Dr. Dave about the actual forces that cause the cue ball to "want to" continue forward. Was it inertia? the idea that an object in motion tends to stay in motion?, etc. He did not directly answer me but referred me to his videos which demonstrate the ball is not over spinning but do not say:
1. If the ball stops turning forward at impact then resumes
2. Leaves the surface of the cloth so continues to spin in the air then resumes when it hits, etc.

I just found a slow motion video clip which explains it better. http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/follow.html#dribble
Overspin appears to happen when the weight of the cue ball is lifted from the cloth. So a tiny bit as Mike Page demonstrates on hit with the cue, then forward roll only until impact. At impact the ball lifts from the cloth and continues to spin in the air. Then when it lands it continues its forward roll. So as near as I can tell the friction with the cloth propels the cue ball forward at high speed, not slipping on the cloth, but when the cue ball collides its forward motion is stopped. The cue ball lifts (or climbs) enough to lose friction with the cloth and free spins in the air. When it re-connects with the cloth the friction propels it forward again.

That makes sense to me as I have often observed the cue ball bounce quite high then drop and spin forward, like on a break shot or a "high action" shot into a rail.
 
denwhit said:
My teacher knows dozens of shots where it is the only way to get the CB to certain spots. He can use it for perfect position, bust out balls, perform safeties, etc. You don't want the 9 or 10 ball anywhere near a pocket or it will be gone. I posted this because there are a lot of pool players hating this shot because it occurs when they don't want it to for ball in jaws. But, it can be very useful to know.
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Here is a clip of the Rail Dribble shot http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV4-8.htm

The next clip http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-21.htm him using rail dribble with a small cut angle to deflect back, go around a ball and return to follow the rail and make a hanger. It shows the cue ball continuously spinning forward while it is slightly off the cloth then grabbing when it lands and shooting forward to pocket the ball.

This effect can be obtained without hitting extremely high on the cue ball. All it needs is enough distance to develop adequate forward roll.
 
skipbales said:
Here is a clip of the Rail Dribble shot http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV4-8.htm

The next clip http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-21.htm him using rail dribble with a small cut angle to deflect back, go around a ball and return to follow the rail and make a hanger. It shows the cue ball continuously spinning forward while it is slightly off the cloth then grabbing when it lands and shooting forward to pocket the ball.

This effect can be obtained without hitting extremely high on the cue ball. All it needs is enough distance to develop adequate forward roll.
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I believe the CB can spin forward, just as it does in draw...on the cloth.
 
denwhit said:
I believe the CB can spin forward, just as it does in draw...on the cloth.
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The cue ball rarely leaves the tip with overspin. That is difficult to accomplish and dangerous. If you meant something else, it was not clear from your statement. Please clarify.
 
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