Seeing FARGORATE stuff makes me wonder

[Cory in DC]

Neither do I!!! If Fargo is so accurate, why are there still separate events for men and women? There should be one, POSSIBLY divided up by age, instead of multiple events for both with the prize money divided up so every winner gets less. When there is ONE event, I'll believe Fargo works. Talking about amateur events of course. JMHO.

Lyn

Karen Corr plays in lots of mixed gender tournaments, so she's a good example. Let's say she averages finishing in 7th place out of 64. Along the way, she beats a lot of men 7-5. Men who she beats 7-5 have an average Fargo rating of 715. Therefore, a woman who Karen usually beats 7-5 should have a Fargo rating of 715.

The numbers are made up for illustration, and this is not the actual Fargorate algorithm, which is more complex. But it does show how information based on common opponents can create ratings that work even among people who have never played.

This is just a mathematical version of what people do in the pool hall all the time. Handicapper tries to figure out a spot: Well, Fat Tony gives Jimmy the wild 8 and the breaks and Smooth Ricky gives Fat Tony the last 2. So Jimmy will need the 7-out and breaks to beat Smooth Ricky.

Take data, draw inferences. That's all. More data will yield better inferences.

Cory

 

[cardiac kid]

Just curious, do you think Fargorate somehow prohibits this from happening? Fargorate has nothing to do with the question of tournaments being co-ed or not, it's a rating system.

If tournament directors/organizers decided to forgo the gender separation that currently exists (kind of like the 'scouts are doing I suppose), I think Fargorate would be a tool they could use to help them do that.

Alex,

Events like all the major league nationals are divided into men's and women's events. The men's events are considered open to anyone. The women's events are considered closed to women only. Let's not get into players who consider themselves a different sex than what they were born as. Not part of this discussion.

None of the sanctioning bodies refuse to allow women to play in the men's events. BCAPL and USAPL use Fargo Rate to separate ability both by Fargo number AND by sex. My position is "if Fargo is so accurate, there should only be one event broken by Fargo Rate numbers. It seems a simple point to me. Guess I must be thick headed. No, I don't think Fargo prevents playing co-ed. Quite the opposite. Think it is the only way to separate players, not by sex.

Incidentally, I play in the VNEA Senior Masters/Intermediate 8 ball event. There are some women who also participate. You just have to be 50 years or more older. That is what I'm posting about.

Lyn

 

[philly]

I have about 30 players in my "favorites" tab on the Fargorate site, including myself. It is spot on as far as rating the ability of the players. Fargorate doesn't care what sex you are even though some of the pool governing bodies do. All this rating systems cares about is how you fared against better or lesser players in determining your rating. I think it is spot on.

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

Alex,

Events like all the major league nationals are divided into men's and women's events. The men's events are considered open to anyone. The women's events are considered closed to women only. Let's not get into players who consider themselves a different sex than what they were born as. Not part of this discussion.

None of the sanctioning bodies refuse to allow women to play in the men's events. BCAPL and USAPL use Fargo Rate to separate ability both by Fargo number AND by sex. My position is "if Fargo is so accurate, there should only be one event broken by Fargo Rate numbers. It seems a simple point to me. Guess I must be thick headed. No, I don't think Fargo prevents playing co-ed. Quite the opposite. Think it is the only way to separate players, not by sex.

Incidentally, I play in the VNEA Senior Masters/Intermediate 8 ball event. There are some women who also participate. You just have to be 50 years or more older. That is what I'm posting about.

Lyn

I get all that, all I'm saying is that it's not Fargorate's responsibility to eliminate the gender issue in pool. It's the event organizers and the participants responsibility to change the way we organize pool tournaments.

You said "if Fargo is so accurate, there should only be one event broken by Fargo Rate numbers." I may agree, but that is not up to Fargorate, it's up to the tournament organizers and players.

Fargorate can be accurate (and I believe it is) and we can still have separate, gender specific tournaments. The later does not have to change for the former to be true, that's all I'm saying.

 

[cardiac kid]

Karen Corr plays in lots of mixed gender tournaments, so she's a good example. Let's say she averages finishing in 7th place out of 64. Along the way, she beats a lot of men 7-5. Men who she beats 7-5 have an average Fargo rating of 715. Therefore, a woman who Karen usually beats 7-5 should have a Fargo rating of 715.

The numbers are made up for illustration, and this is not the actual Fargorate algorithm, which is more complex. But it does show how information based on common opponents can create ratings that work even among people who have never played.

This is just a mathematical version of what people do in the pool hall all the time. Handicapper tries to figure out a spot: Well, Fat Tony gives Jimmy the wild 8 and the breaks and Smooth Ricky gives Fat Tony the last 2. So Jimmy will need the 7-out and breaks to beat Smooth Ricky.

Take data, draw inferences. That's all. More data will yield better inferences.

Cory

Cory,

I agree with your point. That is why I question how a man at 600 is different than a woman at 600. The numbers should mean the same thing.

Lyn

 

[JC]

I have about 30 players in my "favorites" tab on the Fargorate site, including myself. It is spot on as far as rating the ability of the players. Fargorate doesn't care what sex you are even though some of the pool governing bodies do. All this rating systems cares about is how you fared against better or lesser players in determining your rating. I think it is spot on.

You and I agree on something sir.

JC

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

Until she shows she can take getting hit with a 7 pack followed by a flurry of 4's and 5's and not only stay on her feet, but also hit back, I still like Chinahov winning 2 games to her 1 in a race to 100 winner break.

If they played the hypothetical match until either she wins even or he wins giving her 50 games, I'd hate to have to bet the farm on her...

I still think a player has to get up and prove it.

Ok, I get it but we still have a fundamental disagreement here. You don't believe that Fargorate is a true measure of performance and I do. I think the ratings could be off a bit but not that much and I think that "if" they are off, they will eventually adjust to be correct.

So just for grins, would you take the same bet with Ga Young Kim? I'd take the same bet with her for sure. She is in action all the time and I'm willing to bet that none of the male players ranked below her (she's a 759 at the moment) can give her 50 games to 100 and win. In fact, I'd take that bet up to players ranked right under 800.

I'd probably take that bet with anyone in the world, but I like having a little room to breath, so to speak

 

[nine_ball6970]

I am still waiting for a National event open to everyone. All players use fargo ratings and play fairmatch races. From pros to beginners. If Fargo is accurate, then any player who enters the tournament could win. Say 500 players at $100 each. It would look like the BCA Open division from 10 years ago before so many people got bumped or were not allowed to play in the first place.

 

[GideonF]

I get all that, all I'm saying is that it's not Fargorate's responsibility to eliminate the gender issue in pool. It's the event organizers and the participants responsibility to change the way we organize pool tournaments.

You said "if Fargo is so accurate, there should only be one event broken by Fargo Rate numbers." I may agree, but that is not up to Fargorate, it's up to the tournament organizers and players.

Fargorate can be accurate (and I believe it is) and we can still have separate, gender specific tournaments. The later does not have to change for the former to be true, that's all I'm saying.

To add to that, Lyn is missing two points made in this thread:

1. There WAS a big gender-blind FargoRate tournament (the Western BCA) held recently, where they did away with the former division between men's and women's divisions and did it only on skill and the results do support the Fargo system. Mike Page did a video discussing the results as well as how players from different areas did in the event. Watch it here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5tHJ3vLIas So there is no Fargo-based reason why events like this can't happen.

2. Even if the Fargo system is completely accurate on men vs women, women may still prefer to play in women's events. This could be because they think they have a better chance to win (as has been speculated) but it might also have to do with some women not wanting to put up with condescension and other attitude from men players.

 

[BRussell]

BCA Nationals has Mixed and Women’s event, but no Men’s events. I think that’s a good compromise. The women who want to play in the mixed division can play the men in their approximate skill category, but there’s still a women’s division for those who want to just play with women.

 

[GideonF]

I am still waiting for a National event open to everyone. All players use fargo ratings and play fairmatch races. From pros to beginners. If Fargo is accurate, then any player who enters the tournament could win. Say 500 players at $100 each. It would look like the BCA Open division from 10 years ago before so many people got bumped or were not allowed to play in the first place.

"Could" win, maybe. Has a real chance to win, probably not. Even the most severe handicap selection of the fair-match system deliberately favours the stronger player. So my money is still on Shane, Alex, Dennis etc.

 

[PhilosopherKing]

Ok, I get it but we still have a fundamental disagreement here. You don't believe that Fargorate is a true measure of performance and I do. I think the ratings could be off a bit but not that much and I think that "if" they are off, they will eventually adjust to be correct.

So just for grins, would you take the same bet with Ga Young Kim? I'd take the same bet with her for sure. She is in action all the time and I'm willing to bet that none of the male players ranked below her (she's a 759 at the moment) can give her 50 games to 100 and win. In fact, I'd take that bet up to players ranked right under 800.

I'd probably take that bet with anyone in the world, but I like having a little room to breath, so to speak

I never issued a bet, but I can guarantee you that neither one of them would want to have to earn their living playing the players Ruslan does on a consistent basis.

I would, though, be happy take him against each of them in a match appropriately handicapped according to their Fargo ratings.

 

[nine_ball6970]

"Could" win, maybe. Has a real chance to win, probably not. Even the most severe handicap selection of the fair-match system deliberately favours the stronger player. So my money is still on Shane, Alex, Dennis etc.

It is better than the system in place now. Divisions have players with 100 point difference playing even. I know quite a few people who will never go back for BCA Nationals simply because they cannot be competitive in the division they will be in.

Why would a fairmatch race deliberately favor the stronger player? How is it fair if it favors one player over another?

 

[PhilosopherKing]

I never issued a bet, but I can guarantee you that neither one of them would want to have to earn their living playing the players Ruslan does on a consistent basis.

I would, though, be happy take him against each of them in a match appropriately handicapped according to their Fargo ratings.

Also, you seem to bring G.Y.K. into the conversation because she too is a woman, and, in doing so, you misunderstand my point.

My issue with Siming Chen has nothing to do with her sex or the competition she plays against: I simply don't think she's the 28th best player in the world or 28th most likely to win a tournament with a field of the top 100 rated players.

Some people seem to be equating the player with the higher Fargo rating as the better player, and I don't believe that's always accurate or right.

 

[philly]

You and I agree on something sir.

JC

One day you might find out we agree on more than you think. Your Fargo is 27 points higher than mine but I insist we play even sir.

 

[sbpoolleague]

Also, you seem to bring G.Y.K. into the conversation because she too is a woman, and, in doing so, you misunderstand my point.

My issue with Siming Chen has nothing to do with her sex or the competition she plays against: I simply don't think she's the 28th best player in the world or 28th most likely to win a tournament with a field of the top 100 rated players.

Some people seem to be equating the player with the higher Fargo rating as the better player, and I don't believe that's always accurate or right.

I think your issue has EVERYTHING to do with her gender. If Siming Chen was a man, there is no way you would be saying this.

 

[PhilosopherKing]

I think your issue has EVERYTHING to do with her gender. If Siming Chen was a man, there is no way you would be saying this.

we're talking about sex, not gender, and you're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong, and that's straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[sbpoolleague]

Cory,

I agree with your point. That is why I question how a man at 600 is different than a woman at 600. The numbers should mean the same thing.

Lyn

The BCAPL is simply catering to their customers by offering a womens-only event. Same thing applies for the senior and super-senior events (the ones that you play in). Sure they COULD have one and only one tourney. But SHOULD they? Maybe in the future, after Fargo gets more widely established and accepted, the BCAPL might combine some events and even perhaps introduce Fargo-driven handicapping within an event.

 

[sbpoolleague]

we're talking about sex, not gender, and you're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong, and that's straight from the horse's mouth.

Wrong end of the horse

 

[PhilosopherKing]

Wrong end of the horse

I don't know what your deal is, but I can tell by your fondness of the capslock button that it's not worth exploring.