Changing venues when winning

[Michael Andros]

Back in 76-77, when we were out running around the southeast, Randy and I were at Guys and Dolls in Downtown Atlanta. We got in a game with Miami Shorty, who was living at that time in Atlanta. After the first night, we were @ a thousand winner. Shorty wanted to play more the next day but wouldn't play any more at G & D. He wanted us to come to another room somewhere out in the suburbs. I didn't have a really good feeling concerning it but Randy was all about it. My thought was, let him win it back like he lost it. However, Randy was adamant, so we showed up at the new room the next afternoon. We then proceeded to lose it all back, plus a few bucks.

Anyone have an opinion on that? To this day, I think we should've let Shorty chase his losses at Guys and Dolls. True, we might have won more but why let him change venues? We were the out-of-towners. Why give him an advantage?

Any thoughts?

 

[ideologist]

Win it back how you lost it, always

 

[Michael Andros]

Win it back how you lost it, always

Amen and amen.

 

[Cornerman]

Win it back how you lost it, always

That’s always easy to say, but when you’re high In the winners circle, it’s awfully tough not to turn down what looks like an easy score.

I want to say the majority of us have been on both ends. When I was young and playing for money I didn’t have, which wasn’t much to begin with, if I was losing, I try to change it up. And when my opponent bit, it’s because he thought he had the nuts. That’s why people do it.

Now before anyone says anything, I’m talking about when I was young and represent the majority of us that don’t play for hundreds or thousands. I was talking about playing for $5.10 dollars $20 like that, which was a lot for a college kid. Do you know when people say they put themselves through college? I didn’t. Not with pool. I worked.

Freddie <~~~ as low as it gets

 

[RiverCity]

....Anyone have an opinion on that? To this day, I think we should've let Shorty chase his losses at Guys and Dolls. True, we might have won more but why let him change venues? We were the out-of-towners. Why give him an advantage?

Any thoughts?

You already seem to have answered your own question while asking it.

Many moons ago, I had a guy giving me 10-6 for 100 a rack. Thing was, I could have given him 10-6 and still robbed him. I kept him going slow for a while, only taking 3-400 a night from him. Then he starts with all this crazy BS about the balls not being polished enough etc. Grabs a tray, takes the balls off the table mid game and runs them through the Bludworth. Im smiling the entire time.

Then he wanted to bump the bet to 500 a rack. I tell him I dont have that much on me, and want to just keep it at 100. The room owner comes over and offers to back me cause he sees whats going on and wanted in on it. I decline (I had 2-3000 of this guys money in my pocket already and didnt need a partner), so I politely ask him to stay out of it. Well that pissed the room owner off, so he goes behind my back and tries and cut my nuts off by telling the guy, he is giving up way too big of a spot.

I come in the next night and the guy starts going off on me, telling me the owner says the spot is too big etc. I act all pissed off and ask him what business is it on the owners part to stick his nose in our game. I get the guy siding with me that the owner is in the wrong. Then I say Im good with adjusting. He offers me 9-7 and I was off to the races again. :grin-angelic:

 

[Michael Andros]

You already seem to have answered your own question while asking it.

Many moons ago, I had a guy giving me 10-6 for 100 a rack. Thing was, I could have given him 10-6 and still robbed him. I kept him going slow for a while, only taking 3-400 a night from him. Then he starts with all this crazy BS about the balls not being polished enough etc. Grabs a tray, takes the balls off the table mid game and runs them through the Bludworth. Im smiling the entire time.

Then he wanted to bump the bet to 500 a rack. I tell him I dont have that much on me, and want to just keep it at 100. The room owner comes over and offers to back me cause he sees whats going on and wanted in on it. I decline (I had 2-3000 of this guys money in my pocket already and didnt need a partner), so I politely ask him to stay out of it. Well that pissed the room owner off, so he goes behind my back and tries and cut my nuts off by telling the guy, he is giving up way too big of a spot.

I come in the next night and the guy starts going off on me, telling me the owner says the spot is too big etc. I act all pissed off and ask him what business is it on the owners part to stick his nose in our game. I get the guy siding with me that the owner is in the wrong. Then I say Im good with adjusting. He offers me 9-7 and I was off to the races again. :grin-angelic:

You shoulda gone to jail... I like it! :grin: And wazzup wid da ROOM OWNER queering your action? Cause you didn't wanna cut hm in on the nuts? Imho, that's wayyyyyy outta line. Now, if you and the owner had a little gig going, with you flipping him a few bucks on a nice score, that's one thing. But that? Nope. Foul!


Per the OP, I wasn't really asking whether I was right, thinking we were outta line agreeing to change rooms. I KNEW it was a bad idea, even had we won more. I was really just wanting to hear other people's experiences with similar circumstances.

:grin:

 

[maha]

pretty simple answer to the question. if you think he will not play anymore and quit for good and you have a good game then you move with him. simple as that.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Back in 76-77, when we were out running around the southeast, Randy and I were at Guys and Dolls in Downtown Atlanta. We got in a game with Miami Shorty, who was living at that time in Atlanta. After the first night, we were @ a thousand winner. Shorty wanted to play more the next day but wouldn't play any more at G & D. He wanted us to come to another room somewhere out in the suburbs. I didn't have a really good feeling concerning it but Randy was all about it. My thought was, let him win it back like he lost it. However, Randy was adamant, so we showed up at the new room the next afternoon. We then proceeded to lose it all back, plus a few bucks.

Anyone have an opinion on that? To this day, I think we should've let Shorty chase his losses at Guys and Dolls. True, we might have won more but why let him change venues? We were the out-of-towners. Why give him an advantage?

Any thoughts?

If you are in to someone's pocket, and they want a rematch for a chance to win it back, if they want that chance bad enough, you are in the driver's seat and in the position to dictate the terms, as they are desperate for another shot at you.

I'm not referring to asking for a spot if you've already beaten him playing even, but him requesting to move to another poolroom where he is likely more in his comfort zone is certainly not something you are obligated to do, or should do. Bottom line, your partner was just greedy and overconfident that he could beat him again on any table, in any room. Yes, there's a chance he may decline the offer for the rematch in the same room you beat him before, and you may lose that chance to win any more off of him, but you still have his money, so no reason to get greedy and give up your edge.

Your thinking was correct - give him a chance to win it back the same way and at the same room that he lost it. If/when he wants that rematch bad enough, he'll be back.

 

[Michael Andros]

If you are in to someone's pocket, and they want a rematch for a chance to win it back, if they want that chance bad enough, you are in the driver's seat and in the position to dictate the terms, as they are desperate for another shot at you.

I'm not referring to asking for a spot if you've already beaten him playing even, but him requesting to move to another poolroom where he is likely more in his comfort zone is certainly not something you are obligated to do, or should do. Bottom line, your partner was just greedy and overconfident that he could beat him again on any table, in any room. Yes, there's a chance he may decline the offer for the rematch in the same room you beat him before, and you may lose that chance to win any more off of him, but you still have his money, so no reason to get greedy and give up your edge.

Your thinking was correct - give him a chance to win it back the same way and at the same room that he lost it. If/when he wants that rematch bad enough, he'll be back.

Chris -

I didn't blame him for wanting to play again the next day at the new room. He was in DEAD punch ( the road tends to do that for you... if not, you won't be out there long ) at the time. My feeling, however, was exactly what you said. We were into him for a grand, if he wants a shot at some of it back, same bat time, same bat channel. Out scuffling around is a tough enough nut to crack without giving up advantages you don't need to be giving up. On the contrary, when you're out there, you should be looking for every advantage possible, cause you're probably gonna need it.

You're in Boone? I lived in Franklin back in 75. I think they're close, no?

 

[Michael Andros]

shameless bump :duck:

 

[Bob Jewett]

A venue change is like any other request for an adjustment. You have to weigh how much advantage you have and whether you have any margin to give up. If you happen to be enjoying a wrong-way spot, like in Chuck's story above, and the guy asks to move to a room which has exactly the kind of tables you love, you have to say, well, OK, but I need all the breaks. If they are asking to move to a room with bad cushions, lousy balls, nasty patrons, and an owner who has a shotgun and knows when to bring it out, then maybe you need to respectfully decline.

(Which reminds me of a story my father told me. He used to occasionally sit as a judge for courts martial in the Air Force. In one case, a lady of easy virtue was being questioned by the prosecution. Her answer, presumably referring indirectly to the fifth amendment, was, "I respectfully recline to answer that question.")

 

[Michael Andros]

A venue change is like any other request for an adjustment. You have to weigh how much advantage you have and whether you have any margin to give up. If you happen to be enjoying a wrong-way spot, like in Chuck's story above, and the guy asks to move to a room which has exactly the kind of tables you love, you have to say, well, OK, but I need all the breaks. If they are asking to move to a room with bad cushions, lousy balls, nasty patrons, and an owner who has a shotgun and knows when to bring it out, then maybe you need to respectfully decline.

(Which reminds me of a story my father told me. He used to occasionally sit as a judge for courts martial in the Air Force. In one case, a lady of easy virtue was being questioned by the prosecution. Her answer, presumably referring indirectly to the fifth amendment, was, "I respectfully recline to answer that question.")

A difficult proposition ( pun intended! ) with which to ague, Bob.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments vis a vis adjusting. That said, in our particular case, a number of things came into play that, for me, argued against any "adjusting". First, the new room was an unknown quantity. It may've contained any, or all of, your above-listed "issues". Conversely, it may have had none and been the cleanest, nicest, most accommodating room in the country. We had no idea. So, we had no compass on which to make an informed decision on that.

Secondly, Shorty was, at the time ( and if you knew him, and you might have, you already know this ), one of the the best money-players in the country. Great player. But Randy was a world-class player himself, so we were feeling very positive having thumped Shorty pretty good in his own ( or close enough ) room. One thing of which we were damned sure, though: we had no intention of giving up weight to him. We made a good score and, as far as I was concerned, it was time to move on... but Randy was feeling his oats and really felt he was just going to go on winning, regardless of venue. So we went to the other room. And lost.

So... maybe half-way through losing it all back at the new room, I should've just pulled Randy aside, b***h-slapped him and said "Shorty's got more character in his little finger than you have in your whole skinny body. Now get back in there, beat his brains out and let's go have dinner!" :grin-square: :grin: :grin-square:

 

[ChrisinNC]

Chris -

I didn't blame him for wanting to play again the next day at the new room. He was in DEAD punch ( the road tends to do that for you... if not, you won't be out there long ) at the time. My feeling, however, was exactly what you said. We were into him for a grand, if he wants a shot at some of it back, same bat time, same bat channel. Out scuffling around is a tough enough nut to crack without giving up advantages you don't need to be giving up. On the contrary, when you're out there, you should be looking for every advantage possible, cause you're probably gonna need it.

You're in Boone? I lived in Franklin back in 75. I think they're close, no?

Franklin is way down in the southwestern tip of NC, roughly 2-1/2 hours from Boone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Franklin is located in the middle of absolutely nowhere? Just curious what you did there? Closest town of any size would be Asheville, NC well over an hour away or Greenville, SC maybe even further, and Atlanta maybe 2-1/2 hours?

 

[Michael Andros]

Franklin is way down in the southwestern tip of NC, roughly 2-1/2 hours from Boone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Franklin is located in the middle of absolutely nowhere? Just curious what you did there? Closest town of any size would be Asheville, NC well over an hour away or Greenville, SC maybe even further, and Atlanta maybe 2-1/2 hours?

Not only is Franklin in the middle of nowhere, but I actually lived 20 miles outside of Franklin. I lived there for @ 9 months with my mother and stepfather.

For some reason, I thought Boone was just over the mountain from us.

 

[TheMarsMan]

Chris -

I didn't blame him for wanting to play again the next day at the new room. He was in DEAD punch ( the road tends to do that for you... if not, you won't be out there long ) at the time. My feeling, however, was exactly what you said. We were into him for a grand, if he wants a shot at some of it back, same bat time, same bat channel. Out scuffling around is a tough enough nut to crack without giving up advantages you don't need to be giving up. On the contrary, when you're out there, you should be looking for every advantage possible, cause you're probably gonna need it.

You're in Boone? I lived in Franklin back in 75. I think they're close, no?

The way I have always heard this saying is if you are into someone for a grand it means you are loser, if they are into you for a grand they are loser.

I have another take on this, I always like to have as much information as possible so I would say we will take a look at the new location and if I found the tables to be good and the atmosphere good and I am playing as well as I did before I might play. You aren't making a contract to play just looking at the options.

I was going in halves with a friend of mine one night and he was playing a local player spotting him the 7,8 and the break on a bar table for 500 / set. My buddy obviously plays a lot better than him but with the spot it was a close game. We get up two sets and the guy offers to play my buddy even on his home table for 5,000 a set! Of course we say we will take a look at the table and jump in the car. We get to his house and he has an 8' table with good equipment so we say lets play. My friend wins 9 to 1 and the guy says ok I will play you with just the breaks in nine ball for 1K per set race to 5. Again we so go and my buddy wins 14 straight sets before losing one and then wins two more for an additional 20K by going to the guys house.

Moral of the story take a look but don't feel obligated.

 

[terryhanna]

Back in 76-77, when we were out running around the southeast, Randy and I were at Guys and Dolls in Downtown Atlanta. We got in a game with Miami Shorty, who was living at that time in Atlanta. After the first night, we were @ a thousand winner. Shorty wanted to play more the next day but wouldn't play any more at G & D. He wanted us to come to another room somewhere out in the suburbs. I didn't have a really good feeling concerning it but Randy was all about it. My thought was, let him win it back like he lost it. However, Randy was adamant, so we showed up at the new room the next afternoon. We then proceeded to lose it all back, plus a few bucks.

Anyone have an opinion on that? To this day, I think we should've let Shorty chase his losses at Guys and Dolls. True, we might have won more but why let him change venues? We were the out-of-towners. Why give him an advantage?

Any thoughts?

You guys gave the guy good action not like most nitty lock artists pool players these days lol

 

[Michael Andros]

You guys gave the guy good action not like most nitty lock artists pool players these days lol

We had our share of nits back then, trust me!

Yeah, he had his shot at us. He could've won at least 3-400, which was a pretty tidy sum 40 years ago. As it was, he only got us for @ 50. Of course he did get his 1K back.

 

[Michael Andros]

That’s always easy to say, but when you’re high In the winners circle, it’s awfully tough not to turn down what looks like an easy score.

I want to say the majority of us have been on both ends. When I was young and playing for money I didn’t have, which wasn’t much to begin with, if I was losing, I try to change it up. And when my opponent bit, it’s because he thought he had the nuts. That’s why people do it.

Now before anyone says anything, I’m talking about when I was young and represent the majority of us that don’t play for hundreds or thousands. I was talking about playing for $5.10 dollars $20 like that, which was a lot for a college kid. Do you know when people say they put themselves through college? I didn’t. Not with pool. I worked.

Freddie <~~~ as low as it gets

Wise words, Freddie and that's exactly how Randy felt, though winning hadn't been easy for the most part. It took @ 14 hours to get 20 games winner and Randy just felt there was no reason it wouldn't continue regardless of the venue. He turned out to be wrong but he may've just as easily been right. When I told him I didn't like the idea, he said "We're out here to win." So, yeah... you're right. it's not always easy to just say, let's move on.

 

[pt109]

Michael, you haven’t mentioned what the conditions were like where you won...
...and where you lost.
Playing in non-standard conditions favor the home player greatly...
...until you learn the table, cloth, balls, and lighting, he can park whitey on a dime...
...and the visitor probably needs a manhole cover.


I’ve had many experiences over the years that make playing on what you like very important...
...often, even when you get to understand the conditions, you still have trouble playing
your game.....and I was pretty good at adjusting.

 

[Michael Andros]

Michael, you haven’t mentioned what the conditions were like where you won...
...and where you lost.
Playing in non-standard conditions favor the home player greatly...
...until you learn the table, cloth, balls, and lighting, he can park whitey on a dime...
...and the visitor probably needs a manhole cover.


I’ve had many experiences over the years that make playing on what you like very important...
...often, even when you get to understand the conditions, you still have trouble playing
your game.....and I was pretty good at adjusting.

PT - I think one of the huge advantages road players have over "homies" is that, by necessity, the roadie is playing on totally different conditions on a pretty-much-daily basis. Everything you mention; lighting, cloth, tables, balls, etc, are different in nearly every place you stop. And if you're not winning on all those different conditions, you aren't gonna be out there long. I think that's the top reason road runners are/were so dangerous. Not to mention they're in pretty serious action every single day.

As such, I do think roadies have the advantage. I do agree with you that the homie has the distinct advantage if he/she is playing a player from "down the street" as it were ( a room next town over, or somewhere in the general area ), who probably isn't in dead punch from scuffling around on a daily basis, thus being in action constantly. Then, I absolutely agree, the homie has a huge edge for all those same reasons; lighting, cloth, rails, tables, etc.

For us, in that particular instance, Guys and Dolls had ( I believe ) all GCs. Now, this was 40+ years ago but I'm pretty sure they were. G&Ds was a HUGE action room at the time and being there was really only Brunswick and Gandy back then ( minor brands, as I recall, anyway, seldom made it into the major rooms back then ), the brand of table was not really an advantage one way or another. The condition of the tables? Entirely other matter. But, that said, at least in the major-city large rooms, the equipment was usually pretty well kept-up. So conditions didn't really come into play at G&Ds. And even though I don't remember all that much about the room the next day ( I remember G&Ds much better, having been there many times ), I do know it was, literally, a pretty new room, with new equipment. It was in the suburbs, clean, family-oriented, well air-conditioned, etc, etc...

Now, all that being said, the night after we won, we did go out to eat ( naturally ), then to a club and had probably a few more than just "a few" drinks. Neither of us got drunk, but we weren't "counting the calories", as it were. Meantime, I'm guessing Shorty went home, ate dinner and went to bed, got a good, long night's sleep and got up the next day pissed off he'd lost and brought an edge with him to the new room. Who really knows? We won the day before, he won the next day. Whatever the reason, I am sure it wasn't the conditions. I do know this, though... when we quit? Shorty wasn't offering any weight to keep us in the game.