Question about blanks?

The experience you get by doing this correctly. Is absolutely priceless. WOW. And I couldn't be more serious. I tell people all the time starting out. Buy some blanks. Finish them correctly meaning point alignment. And you'll really learn something.

Obviously some are more artistic, some are better engineers or machinists. Each maker brings different things to the table. I have noticed they tend to be intelligent.

But I think it's hard to avoid the basic truth of the value of experience as you say. You can't fake that. You can't read it in a book.

I remember a friend showed me a cue he thought was warped. When rolled on the table you could see light under a certain point in the forearm. It wasn't warped. The cue maker had sanded the points to get them even, obviously had lost his centers and failed to get them back.

As a general statement I think what a cue maker does with a blank is more important than whether or not he made it.

There have been high end European cars that use parts from GM and Ford...whole transmissions in some cases...including some Ferraris.

And GB himself made many Titlist based cues....

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What does a cuemaker do when using another cue as a blank? Is there always an asterisk next to the new cue. For example, will it always be “SugarTree using a Schmelke blank” or can it just be called a SugarTree?

The maker of the blank is part of the history of the cue. Call it whatever you want as long as you own it. When it comes time to sell it. I think the history should be honestly represented.


Larry
 
The experience you get by doing this correctly. Is absolutely priceless. WOW. And I couldn't be more serious. I tell people all the time starting out. Buy some blanks. Finish them correctly meaning point alignment. And you'll really learn something.

Another good post Mr. Webb.
 
I remember a friend showed me a cue he thought was warped. When rolled on the table you could see light under a certain point in the forearm. It wasn't warped. The cue maker had sanded the points to get them even, obviously had lost his centers and failed to get them back.

That sounds like rogue points, not a failure to find center. For a plethora of reasons, it's pretty common for a full splice to have at least one rogue point that CANNOT be made even with the others by manipulating centers. It could be cut deeper or shallower, the wood could have warped or come of round, the two pieces not glued together on perfect center line, etc. Regardless, it's more common to have rogue points than it is to get a perfect blank. That's what Mike is alluding to about the difficulty of converting a blank. It's very tricky work and no matter how good you are, sometimes it's not good enough.

It sounds like the maker had already centered up the points as close as possible, then hand worked the rogue point(s). That is not an easy or fast job, especially if he had to remove enough material that it was apparent in the finished state. If he's going to go through that trouble, then it's because he had to & not because he isn't good enough to find center. Finding center is infinitely easier than manipulating points by hand. He had to choose between a cue with good dimensions and unacceptably bad aesthetics, or correct aesthetics & altered dimensions. Playability & stability will be the same regardless, only one will look good and one won't. When you work with full splice blanks, this is a pretty regular dilemma. The third option is throw it away & start with a fresh blank. But how many costly blanks are you willing to go through for a cue you'll sell for a few hundred bucks? Rarely does a full splice finish out with the cleanliness & precision of a short splice, no matter how good the cue or blank maker is. That's just the nature of the beast.
 
That sounds like rogue points, not a failure to find center. For a plethora of reasons, it's pretty common for a full splice to have at least one rogue point that CANNOT be made even with the others by manipulating centers.

I understand, thank you. I over-simplified the matter.

It was a short splice cue, not full splice.
 
Really enjoy getting to be audience to these kinds of discussions, with this kind of talent contributing.
 
I've never quite understood the old stigma of using blanks from other makers or suppliers. I have used several Schmelke blanks for full spliced veneered and non-veneered wrapless cues (I don't like the term sneaky pete,) because quite frankly, whomever they get their full spliced blanks from can do a hell of a lot better job with a full splice than I can. I always disclose where the blank came from. Short splices, I do myself, though I wouldn't be opposed to using a good blank from another maker.

It seems the general perception has lightened up somewhat in the past 10 years. I remember several discussions on here when I first joined the forum where the term "cue assembler" was thrown around with quite a bit of negativity. When Balabushka was brought up, a common response would be something along the lines of "He's famous and you're not," which made no sense to me. Other makers such as Verl Horn made great cues, some of which were clearly Prathers blanks.

When I started building, and I fully disclose that I am a hobbyist, I did as much research as I could and made some very specific decisions. I had done repair for MANY years, but my machining experience was limited. To help establish proper practices, I didn't order taper bars on my lathe. I wanted to learn how to offset first. I then added third party taper bars, and now I've started to learn with the CNC. I still ask a TON of questions on this forum weekly because of the amount of respect that I have for people who have helped me along the way like Eric, Chris Hightower, Bob Dzuricky and Mike Webb. I don't care where a blank came from because I know the talent it takes to take that blank and make it hit like a fine instrument.
 
Whether it's blanks (point alignment) or refinish. The most important tools in my shop are my dial indicators. They give the answer to what may not be easy to see.
 
That sounds like rogue points, not a failure to find center. For a plethora of reasons, it's pretty common for a full splice to have at least one rogue point that CANNOT be made even with the others by manipulating centers. It could be cut deeper or shallower, the wood could have warped or come of round, the two pieces not glued together on perfect center line, etc.

I know you are famous and have built tons more very highly respected cues than me, which are coveted anywhere people play cue sports.

However, the statement above bothers me. The only way that it would be true is if the blank maker is cutting poor joints, and forcing, rather than tuning the fits. Otherwise, using a "dialable" chuck (Independent 4 jaw or Adjust-tru) at both ends of the cue to dial the points in will make a simple 4 splice, or 4 splice with veneers come in. If one point is short (or long) the cue builder did not understand (or take time) centering it at both ends of the splice. A full splice dowel may have to be re-centered as it is cut and tapered, even well aged wood still moves as stress is relieved. It is a lot of extra work.

All the geometry in a WELL CUT long splice forces it to be centered. The joint won't go together without gaps if it is not centered about itself. Unless there was serious fudging like incorrectly, but individually tweaking one rogue prong significantly to force a fit the poor geometry did not support. This could occur (the need to tweak) if the blanks of both parts of the joint were not perfectly square. Having the Vee cutter perfectly on center makes better joints, but slightly off won't change the length of the Vee's, for instance. Not having square blanks for both parts will change the lengths of the Vee's. Rectangular will set up a situation where both sets of opposite points are the same length, if the butt is centered when turning it. Rhomboid will lead to stair steps. (This is for conventional method of making full splices referenced off the faces. If an index arrangement is used, less than perfectly square blanks could be used, but thin-end support becomes non-trivial for non-squares).

If only one end of the blank is dialed to center, then there will always be a short point after the next cut even on a perfect blank.

The above does not apply to 360 blanks or set ups. With more than one full splice in a single blank, it may only be possible to average out differences between two sets of points unless the blank builder is extremely conscientious, skilled, and lucky. :) He might make a perfect blank, but if any of the sections move a bit with turning and aging, it will throw the points off as Qbilder described such that making one end perfect would cause the other to be "way off". On very long splices, some fudging (maybe 1/16" to 3/32") can be accommodated by sanding such that gaps won't show and very few could discern without mic'ing the shaft all around.

This is probably why most of the pictures( at leas the ones i've seen) of original 360 type cues have some very divergent points and butterflies.

Most of the above does continue to support Qbilders initial point that making full splices is a wasteful endeavor for anyone who does not want or can't set up the equipment to do it perfectly, leave it set up, and understand how to tweak it as necessary. This may even include building your own tooling (cutters).

Sunmmary: setting up to do full splices without full commitment and with partial measures will probably lead to poor joints no one can dial in. I doubt many blanks are made that way just because it is harder and more time consuming to always have to tweak and bend them to fit. Full splice joints made to go together well can only be made that way if centered about the joint. It would be up to the cue maker to dial both ends in, maybe several times, to maintain that orientation. Or to send the blank back if poor joinery is discovered.

smt
 
... I have used several Schmelke blanks for full spliced veneered and non-veneered wrapless cues (I don't like the term sneaky pete,) because quite frankly, whomever they get their full spliced blanks from can do a hell of a lot better job with a full splice than I can. ...

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Schmelke build (cut & glue & turn) their own full splices.

Dave
 
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Schmelke build (cut & glue & turn) their own full splices.

Dave

From my understanding, they are distributed by schmelke but made by someone else. Short spliced cues they make in house.
 
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