"He may be easy, but he isnt cheap"
TD's Responsibilities When Asked to Judge a Potential Double Hit Shot
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
- Start date
"He may be easy, but he isnt cheap"
That is a good question. If I had not been hand signaled by the opponent to observe and judge the shot, but still witnessed it, there immediately would have been a disagreement between the 2 players as to whether it was a legal hit. Since I was not asked to judge it, even if I clearly witnessed the foul, my call would likely have gone with the shooter in not calling the foul. I would have informed his opponent that he had the opportunity to call me to the table to judge the shot, but failed to do so - too bad. In 22+ years of doing tournaments, I've learned if at all possible to try to stay out of it and let the players resolve it, unless I've been called to the table to judge it, even in the case when I happen to witness it and know what should be called, but haven't been asked to judge it.
Not to say I would always judge in favor of the shooter. If I know the shooter is a good enough to know better and is just trying to get over on their opponent in a situation where think they can, simply because I haven't been asked to the table to judge the shot, I have no problem ruling against the shooter if I know and I know he knows he's committed a foul.
Last edited:
When the opponent waved me over, he was sitting and I was standing in a position somewhat behind the shooter, so he didn't see him waving to signal me in to judge the shot, and he didn't see me approach the table just behind him. He was already getting ready to shoot, so instead of interrupting him (which I now realize I should have), I got myself in close to the table but still somewhat behind his left shoulder to where in his line of vision he didn't realize I was directly behind him judging the shot. I had clear view of everything I needed to see in order to make the call. And as I said it wasn't even a hard call - it was an obvious blatant double kiss / push to any knowledgeable player.
Yes that is fine if he does not want coaching, but if the guy knew that this player did not know the rule, should have explained it to him. Like I said it's not the US Open, every local tournament with lower players should have those lower players being helped to get better and to learn the rules. It's not a bad thing not to tell the guy how to shoot since he should have learned the rules before playing, but it's not a good thing not to tell him the rule and explain how to avoid the foul.
Now if a B or an A player did this, that would be up to them to know the rules. I don't expect a C or a D to know things past "hit this ball next and this is how the rack looks like".
With this player come back to play? Maybe not. Will he think the other players are all assholes? Probably. To avoid both, teach the shot.
Last edited:
Once again, I LOVE the friendliness. But competition is not the time for lessons. Maybe this tournament is more important to some than others. I’ve never had a problem offering advice to a low ranked player, even in a tournament, but that should be up to the opponent, NOT the TD.
I may be wrong but I feel the opponent should let the shooter know someone is going to watch the shot. Not just wave TD over to a spot where shooter has no idea.
I would be kind of pissed if I was the shooter and someone I didn't even know was there called a foul.
Respectfully but completely disagree. If you want to jump in with the big dogs it's not up to the big dogs to make sure everyone knows the rules. It's up to the individual players. Once upon a time I was a D player playing guys like Shorty, Tony Ruberto, Nelson, etc...
Never once would I have expected them to explain anything to me. If I made a mistake then I learned from it and moved on. It wasn't their fault, it was mine.
To many of the amateur players, winning a local tournament such as the one in the OP's post, is tantamount to a seasoned pro winning a U.S. Open. It's just about as good as many of these players are going to do in pool, and they know that. As a SVB strives to win World Championships, the local amateur strives to take down the weekly small tournament.
Maniac (remembers the joy of winning his first local tournament)
I guess it would depend on the tournament. I would never let a beginner or newer player fall on their face without explaining things, even if I let them shoot the shot wrong the first time and explained it afterwards. But I would tell them (and I have it's not theoretical), you are going to foul here, but I'll show you why afterwards. I can count at least 6 new regular pool players our tournaments and league has gotten due to me teaching players things during and after a tournament they showed up for.
I'm not to worried to have someone beat me because I showed them a shot that cost me the game. I don't play in a lot of high pressure tournaments with players out to try to win money vs just play the game.
What about 3 foul? If you tell a new player that they are on 2 and they have no clue what you are talking about, should you explain it to them or just rake the balls if they foul again and tell them they lost?
Here's the deal. He didn't stop the shooter as he should have, but calling the TD over to judge the shot is still a much better way than just letting the player shoot the double-hit...the opponent calling a foul on him for it...then the opponent that called the foul trying to explain the double-hit to a person who has no clue of what one is...and eventually getting the TD involved anyway.
What might have been the best solution once the shooter was down on the shot with the TD watching is for the opponent to have called the foul after the fact and had the TD back him up when the shooter disputed it.
Regardless of how the whole scenario transpired, the bottom line is that a foul occurred, and if the shooter had known the rule there wouldn't have been a problem.
If you're gonna run with the medium dogs, you need to know what the medium dogs know. A pool tournament that the locals take pride in winning is no place for instruction/rules explaining. That should be done after the tournament's over or at another time.
Maniac
C level player should have been informed. The mind and body sense things not readily apparent. OP states he was unseen to the shooter, but was his presence truely unknown and may this have caused any distraction, however slight?
It wouldn't surprise me if A level player, very close to getting spanked by a mere C level player, deliberately called TD over discreetly to avoid C player from pausing and re-analyzing his shot.
It wouldn't surprise me if A level player, very close to getting spanked by a mere C level player, deliberately called TD over discreetly to avoid C player from pausing and re-analyzing his shot.
Wouldn't have made any difference. Since the shooter didn't even understand what constitutes what a double-hit is, he would have still double-hit the cue ball and fouled.
Maniac
Of course you would explain it to them. It's as easy as saying, "if you don't make a legal hit on this shot you lose the game". We can pick at nits all day but this one seems self explanatory to me.
Koop - wouldn't be playing in a tournament if I didn't know what a 3 foul was
I just don't see why one is an obvious tell the opponent and the other is not when either rule is just as likely to not be known by the caliber of player we are discussing.
You could just as easily say either you have to jack up or shoot away from two balls which are close to each other or it will be a double hit foul.
I think you gain more from telling a new player a simple rule vs letting them foul and being upset you didn't say anything.
Maybe it is just me but it seems to be better to lead by example rather than trying to stomp new players into the ground by any means necessary when you are probably going to run over them even without the benefit of ball in hand after a double hit foul.
It would absolutely drive any normal person crazy if you tried teaching them stuff in the middle of a tournament match. It’s rude and condescending. But go ahead and keep doing that to all the lesser-thanks who appreciate it.
I thought the same thing. I’ve seen that happen personally!
Perhaps.
But are you saying, with certainty, that a player that does not know the definition of a double hit, will double hit a shot with 3" separation?
This is clearly a popular opinion, but I still fail to see the logic in being obligated to notify your opponent (the shooter) that his shot is being watched by a ref. Notifying the shooter will only give him the advantage of rethinking the shot. Why provide an advantage to your opponent if it's completely unnecessary to do so?
Calling over the referee is to cover your own butt. You're in no way obligated to cover the butt of your opponent.
If it's a matter of sportsmanship...that you want to educate your opponent of the rules...then that's a different story. But in competition, you're in no way obligated to increase your opponent's education of the rules.
Last edited: