^^^ THIS ^^^
Koop - agrees with Easy
"He may be easy, but he isnt cheap"
^^^ THIS ^^^
Koop - agrees with Easy
That is a good question. If I had not been hand signaled by the opponent to observe and judge the shot, but still witnessed it, there immediately would have been a disagreement between the 2 players as to whether it was a legal hit. Since I was not asked to judge it, even if I clearly witnessed the foul, my call would likely have gone with the shooter in not calling the foul. I would have informed his opponent that he had the opportunity to call me to the table to judge the shot, but failed to do so - too bad. In 22+ years of doing tournaments, I've learned if at all possible to try to stay out of it and let the players resolve it, unless I've been called to the table to judge it, even in the case when I happen to witness it and know what should be called, but haven't been asked to judge it.Chris,
Your solution lies in the answer to this question...what would you (and should you) have done if you were NOT called over to the table, but you just happened to be standing near the table watching the "C" player shoot and you witnessed the double hit?
Unless a TD has been officially called over to judge a shot, which includes notifying the shooter, that TD should NEVER be the FIRST person to call a foul. The TD must wait for the shooter's opponent to call a foul, THEN, if there is a disagreement, the TD can add their two cents.
If you start calling fouls on matches where you have not officially been put in the "referee chair", you can open yourself up to criticism for things like bias, favoritism, etc.
When the opponent waved me over, he was sitting and I was standing in a position somewhat behind the shooter, so he didn't see him waving to signal me in to judge the shot, and he didn't see me approach the table just behind him. He was already getting ready to shoot, so instead of interrupting him (which I now realize I should have), I got myself in close to the table but still somewhat behind his left shoulder to where in his line of vision he didn't realize I was directly behind him judging the shot. I had clear view of everything I needed to see in order to make the call. And as I said it wasn't even a hard call - it was an obvious blatant double kiss / push to any knowledgeable player.You called it right, but IMO Player C needs to know the shot
is being watched for the hit. Surprised that he didn't know,
what with his opponent calling you over.
And Player C needs to know the rules.. it's not the TD's
responsibilty to teach him.
I like the whole “being friendly” aspect, but what about the guy who wanted the shot watched? Dude is there hoping to win money. His opponent should not be allowed a coach during the tournament.
Yes that is fine if he does not want coaching, but if the guy knew that this player did not know the rule, should have explained it to him. Like I said it's not the US Open, every local tournament with lower players should have those lower players being helped to get better and to learn the rules. It's not a bad thing not to tell the guy how to shoot since he should have learned the rules before playing, but it's not a good thing not to tell him the rule and explain how to avoid the foul.
Now if a B or an A player did this, that would be up to them to know the rules. I don't expect a C or a D to know things past "hit this ball next and this is how the rack looks like".
With this player come back to play? Maybe not. Will he think the other players are all assholes? Probably. To avoid both, teach the shot.
When the opponent waved me over, he was sitting and I was standing in a position somewhat behind the shooter, so he didn't see him waving to signal me in to judge the shot, and he didn't see me approach the table just behind him. He was already getting ready to shoot, so instead of interrupting him (which I now realize I should have), I got myself in close to the table but still somewhat behind his left shoulder to where in his line of vision he didn't realize I was directly behind him judging the shot. I had clear view of everything I needed to see in order to make the call. And as I said it wasn't even a hard call - it was an obvious blatant double kiss / push to any knowledgeable player.
Yes that is fine if he does not want coaching, but if the guy knew that this player did not know the rule, should have explained it to him. Like I said it's not the US Open, every local tournament with lower players should have those lower players being helped to get better and to learn the rules. It's not a bad thing not to tell the guy how to shoot since he should have learned the rules before playing, but it's not a good thing not to tell him the rule and explain how to avoid the foul.
Now if a B or an A player did this, that would be up to them to know the rules. I don't expect a C or a D to know things past "hit this ball next and this is how the rack looks like".
With this player come back to play? Maybe not. Will he think the other players are all assholes? Probably. To avoid both, teach the shot.
In your case, it is a bit iffy since you are not playing in the US Open LOL In a local handicapped event that really does not matter since half the reason there are weaker players there is so they get better. In any local tournament with weaker players, the opportunity to teach should be used.
Respectfully but completely disagree. If you want to jump in with the big dogs it's not up to the big dogs to make sure everyone knows the rules. It's up to the individual players. Once upon a time I was a D player playing guys like Shorty, Tony Ruberto, Nelson, etc...
Never once would I have expected them to explain anything to me. If I made a mistake then I learned from it and moved on. It wasn't their fault, it was mine.
Respectfully but completely disagree. If you want to jump in with the big dogs it's not up to the big dogs to make sure everyone knows the rules. It's up to the individual players. Once upon a time I was a D player playing guys like Shorty, Tony Ruberto, Nelson, etc...
Never once would I have expected them to explain anything to me. If I made a mistake then I learned from it and moved on. It wasn't their fault, it was mine.
I may be wrong but I feel the opponent should let the shooter know someone is going to watch the shot. Not just wave TD over to a spot where shooter has no idea.
I would be kind of pissed if I was the shooter and someone I didn't even know was there called a foul.
It wouldn't surprise me if A level player, very close to getting spanked by a mere C level player, deliberately called TD over discreetly to avoid C player from pausing and re-analyzing his shot.
What about 3 foul? If you tell a new player that they are on 2 and they have no clue what you are talking about, should you explain it to them or just rake the balls if they foul again and tell them they lost?
Of course you would explain it to them. It's as easy as saying, "if you don't make a legal hit on this shot you lose the game". We can pick at nits all day but this one seems self explanatory to me.
Koop - wouldn't be playing in a tournament if I didn't know what a 3 foul was
I guess it would depend on the tournament. I would never let a beginner or newer player fall on their face without explaining things, even if I let them shoot the shot wrong the first time and explained it afterwards. But I would tell them (and I have it's not theoretical), you are going to foul here, but I'll show you why afterwards. I can count at least 6 new regular pool players our tournaments and league has gotten due to me teaching players things during and after a tournament they showed up for.
I'm not to worried to have someone beat me because I showed them a shot that cost me the game. I don't play in a lot of high pressure tournaments with players out to try to win money vs just play the game.
C level player should have been informed. The mind and body sense things not readily apparent. OP states he was unseen to the shooter, but was his presence truely unknown and may this have caused any distraction, however slight?
It wouldn't surprise me if A level player, very close to getting spanked by a mere C level player, deliberately called TD over discreetly to avoid C player from pausing and re-analyzing his shot.
Wouldn't have made any difference. Since the shooter didn't even understand what constitutes what a double-hit is, he would have still double-hit the cue ball and fouled.
Maniac
When there is not a referee assigned to the table, I would think it necessary for both players to be aware that the shot was being judged, and by whom.
He needs to stop the shooter to have someone watch the shot.
...
Player C needs to know the shot is being watched. This is why I’ve mentioned twice that Player A needs to stop play so Player C knows the shot is being watched.
So IMO, the right/fair move would have been to interrupt the player (if necessary) so that he knows the shot is being reffed.
Player should have been stopped and told the shot was being watched and why.
I agree. I’d let him know that I’ve been asked to watch the hit.
IMO play should be stopped ALWAYS to inform shooter of a ref's presence when a ref is not present for an entire match.
You called it right, but IMO Player C needs to know the shot is being watched for the hit.
I may be wrong but I feel the opponent should let the shooter know someone is going to watch the shot. Not just wave TD over to a spot where shooter has no idea.
This is clearly a popular opinion, but I still fail to see the logic in being obligated to notify your opponent (the shooter) that his shot is being watched by a ref. Notifying the shooter will only give him the advantage of rethinking the shot. Why provide an advantage to your opponent if it's completely unnecessary to do so?C level player should have been informed.