Was it a foul?

[Catalin]

It is really a nonissue under most rules but not the way the OP wants things to be. Two balls can be touching, one or both touching the rail, they still aren't frozen until declared frozen. Nobody has to care what the physical state of the balls were, frozen or not they ain't frozen until everyone says so!



Silly seeming indeed but the OP is caught short because the balls weren't declared. At that point all kinds of rules can come into play. Must hit away from the ball, must elevate the cue 45 degrees, no guessing what.



I have never seen a set of pool rules that didn't require some common sense and judgment being used. However, if any competitor or official prefers to stick with the written rule it is hard to say they are asses or even lacking in ethics. It would seem more ethical to follow the written rule than intent but there are at least three threads seeing action right now concerning rules questions. Obviously pool rules need some updating and standardization.



I can only dream!



Hu

And I'm tired of people jumping in without actually bothering to understand the post and the question. The issue was never not calling the balls frozen. The issue is that some people believe that whether the balls are touching or just close by, the same rules apply. If you don't understand that, I cannot make it more clear.

Julian

 

[Swighey]

And I'm tired of people jumping in without actually bothering to understand the post and the question. The issue was never not calling the balls frozen. The issue is that some people believe that whether the balls are touching or just close by, the same rules apply. If you don't understand that, I cannot make it more clear.

Julian

If a tournament has rules about playing at an angle when the balls are close then it doesn’t matter whether they are “that” close or frozen or in between - you have to play at an angle to play a legal shot.

On the other hand, if there are no “local” rules then you can play through the ball if the cue ball is frozen to it.

I think you will find that pretty much everyone who has replied here understands. They don’t need it to be made any more clear. It’s not a foul. But it is if you didn’t declare the balls were frozen. But it isn’t if your opponent isn’t a d1ck. But it is if he is. So it is.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

And I'm tired of people jumping in without actually bothering to understand the post and the question. The issue was never not calling the balls frozen. The issue is that some people believe that whether the balls are touching or just close by, the same rules apply. If you don't understand that, I cannot make it more clear.

Julian

You’re the one not getting the distinction. If you declared the balls frozen and your opponent jumps up and grabs the cb and screams foul, he gets an unsportsmanlike conduct foul called against him. Not only would you be granted ball in hand, you should also be awarded 1 game in the race. Including if that were to give you the match win.

You screwed up. Deal with it.

 

[Catalin]

If a tournament has rules about playing at an angle when the balls are close then it doesn’t matter whether they are “that” close or frozen or in between - you have to play at an angle to play a legal shot.



On the other hand, if there are no “local” rules then you can play through the ball if the cue ball is frozen to it.



I think you will find that pretty much everyone who has replied here understands. They don’t need it to be made any more clear. It’s not a foul. But it is if you didn’t declare the balls were frozen. But it isn’t if your opponent isn’t a d1ck. But it is if he is. So it is.

Thanks for understanding. The tournament doesn't have any special local rules. I think it's about the people wrongly believing a double hit cannot be avoided in this scenario.

I did win that match with a two-game lead so I'm not bitter. What I need from you is ammunition so next time I can tell people that I'm allowed to use normal stroke and it's not a foul.

Julian

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

What I need from you is ammunition so next time I can tell people that I'm allowed to use normal stroke and it's not a foul.

It’s called a rule book. BCA/CSI/WPA, pick one. It has what you’re looking for.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Saturday I played in an 8-ball tournament and at one point during the game, the CB came resting again one of my object balls (frozen balls). They were wired for the pocket, I played the shot with elevated cue and made the ball.

My oponent jumped up, called foul and grabbed the CB off the table. There was no referee, we went to the tournament leader and explained the situation and he said it was hard to say without watching, but grated my opponent the foul.

I had actually just watched an instructional video by Dr Dave explaining that when then balls are frozen, it's not a foul even if you play straight through the CB so I was fairly confident on that shot.

Julian

Edit: Just to clarify, my oponent and the TD were of the opinion that although the balls were frozen, a foul was still possible and therefore awarded. There was no debate whether the balls were frozen or not.

It is a matter of common sense and courtesy, to avoid potential conflicts after the shot, to check and then inform your opponent if the balls are frozen, before you play a shot as you described - which would be a double hit foul if the balls were not deemed frozen. Once you inform your opponent they are frozen, you should immediately know by their response whether they understand the rule correctly and if not, bring in the TD before you shoot it to explain it to your opponent.

 

[Saturated Fats]

"Where I play" carries no weight

Sorry, but clearly everyone involved screwed up. Here's the rule:


The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the
referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot.


1. Shooter didn't ask for the frozen ball declaration.

2. Opponent grabbed the cue ball.

3. Referee/TD awarded BIH for a "possible" foul while the certain foul was committed by the opponent.

 

[Inaction]

There was a game in the SD State 8 Ball tournament around 1990 where two players were trying to freeze the 8 ball to the rail.

Mike jumps over to the rail and calls the ball frozen after Joe taps it.

Then Mike quickly touches the cueball with the tip and calls it frozen again.

When Joe called a foul, Mike countered with "the rule states that the opponent has to declare a ball frozen for it to be frozen."

So according to a technicality, the ball was not frozen for Mike, because Joe wasn't the one declaring it.

Cheap shot, and I don't remember how it turned out. Was probably a rerack or a fight.

 

[alstl]

Should be a legal shot but if the tournament is using the "pull a rule out of your asterisk" rules then anything could happen.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... What I need from you is ammunition so next time I can tell people that I'm allowed to use normal stroke and it's not a foul.
...

Shots where the cue ball and object ball are close is clearly a problem in your league. Perhaps the TD and some other players are confused about the rule. Unfortunately for you, the TD is the final authority on what the rule is. Even if the rule book seems to say something different, you are stuck with him. He has to make the decision before a next shot can be taken.

From your description of what happened, you are dealing with a very green TD or he is your opponent's brother-in-law.

The next time a close-ball situation comes up, I feel you better get the TD over to watch the shot. He might also explain what rule he is going to apply, but some TDs refuse to discuss the rules either before or after the shot.

Finally, the responder above is correct -- you should have declared and had confirmed that the balls were frozen before you shot through. The rules state explicitly that if such a determination is not made before the shot, the balls are assumed to not be frozen. Perhaps you feel that's irrelevant to your question, but it is the rule and it is important in the situation you described.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Sorry, but clearly everyone involved screwed up. Here's the rule:


The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the
referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot.


1. Shooter didn't ask for the frozen ball declaration.

2. Opponent grabbed the cue ball.

3. Referee/TD awarded BIH for a "possible" foul while the certain foul was committed by the opponent.

I believe the technical term for this is a "cluster fracas".

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Should be a legal shot but if the tournament is using the "pull a rule out of your asterisk" rules then anything could happen.

I don’t think anyone has questioned whether he made a good hit or not. That’s not the debate. The problem is, how does anyone else know the balls are frozen without it being called? That’s the point of the rule. Had the OP called them frozen, and his opponent gotten up and agreed with it, then there is no problem. So at that point of the opponent would have behaved the same way, the OP gets to call unsportsmanlike conduct. The fact that the OP doesn’t know the rules does not help his situation.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.. Had the OP called them frozen, and his opponent gotten up and agreed with it, then there is no problem. ...

That's only true if the TD says you can shoot through a frozen ball. TDs say the darndest things.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

That's only true if the TD says you can shoot through a frozen ball. TDs say the darndest things.

If the TD said we’re using BCA rules, it’s fine. APA rules, still fine. VNEA is the only rule set that punishes players in this situation. Very few tournaments get played with VNEA rules because of their rulings on this. And yes, I’ve faced this same situation in a VNEA rule tourney. Had to jack my cue up to 45*, and didn’t get position for my final ball as a result. Every other rule set I would have been able to play the cb forward through contact.

 

[Bob Jewett]

If the TD said we’re using BCA rules, it’s fine. APA rules, still fine. VNEA is the only rule set that punishes players in this situation. Very few tournaments get played with VNEA rules because of their rulings on this. ...

The OP has not stated whether a formal national rule set was in force. "No special local rules" could be anything.

 

[ctyhntr]

I don't think that mattered. Once the TD made the jump of logic from a foul is possible in that shot scenario, then decided a foul already occurred and ruled for the opponent. TD was final authority, so any issue OP had should be taken up with the TD.

The OP has not stated whether a formal national rule set was in force. "No special local rules" could be anything.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

The OP has not stated whether a formal national rule set was in force. "No special local rules" could be anything.

Only way I’d ever call that is during a VNEA event. Good everywhere else in my opinion. Just don’t go blasting away though, possible to still double hit through a frozen ball then. Use control, the cue ball still going to go somewhere.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

I don't think that mattered. Once the TD made the jump of logic from a foul is possible in that shot scenario, then decided a foul already occurred and ruled for the opponent. TD was final authority, so any issue OP had should be taken up with the TD.

The foul occurred once the OP hit the cue ball. It wasn’t a true double hit foul, but the failure to call them frozen is what gives credence that a double hit occurred. The outcome of the shot was a cue ball that behaved exactly like one that was double hit. Since no frozen called, any play happening under the assumption of a known rule set follows form. The OP, and the opponent both broke rules during the shot. But should the OP be rewarded for his failure the know the rules just because his opponent acted like an ass by grabbing the cue ball?

 

[sbpoolleague]

BCAPL rule 1-20.1 clearly states that the shooter must declare the cue ball frozen to an object ball prior to shooting, or else the cue ball will be deemed NOT frozen. Therefore, if you were using BCAPL rules, the cue ball was NOT frozen to that object ball and you probably committed a foul by shooting directly towards the object ball.

It was the shooter's mistake by not knowing the rules. The opponent made a mistake by picking up the cue ball without having fully determined whether or not a foul had taken place.

 

[Texas Carom Club]