Aiming Systems, Teachers, Etc.

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
But when a great player says he does use systems then what? Is that not as equally valid as a player saying he doesn't use any systems?

I mean the choice when learning to play IS NOT binary. It's not an either/or situation.

It is literally a Bruce Lee situation, take what works and discard the rest. If you get all that you need to succeed out of just hitting balls then great. If you don't then perhaps any number of methods can help you get what you need.

What is binary is the attitude that objective methods of aiming are somehow detrimental to a person's game. The idea that if you start down the road of exploring and adopting an aiming system that you will never become a good player much less a champion caliber player. Because that is really the message here that the hit-a-million-ballls crowd is promoting. For them it's literally an either/or tradeoff and that simply isn't true.

Then there are the absolutists whose platform seems to be along the lines of everything there is to know about human physiology and neurology is known and thus they are absolutely certain that aiming systems are nothing more than subconscious feel dressed up in an overly complicated set of instructions. The absolutists claim that any benefit derived from the study and use of aiming systems is purely incidental and not objectively related to aiming at all. They like to paint system users as self deluded. If the system user is not a champion then they are attributing any claimed improvement to the system when in fact they might be making more shots because the system has improved their pre-shot routine and not their aim. If the system user is a champion already then the standard line from the absolutists is that that person did not need an aiming system to be a champion and that they were just using a psychological crutch. Absolutists also cling to the 2d math and say if a method cannot be drawn (by an aiming system user) in 2d with an equation attached to it then it cannot be objective or valid.

Pretty odd to me that they are absolutely willing to believe the "I just hit balls and got to world class" origin story but the "I use an objective set of instructions to bring me to the shot line" story is not valid. I mean it's not as if someone is claiming to have built a house using a wet paper towel roll as a hammer.

So yeah, the ENTIRE purpose of this thread seems to me to be to dissuade people from learning and trying aiming systems because allegedly a pro player said he doesn't use any.

Well......the highest rated player on the planet, Shane Van Boening, not only uses an aiming system but he also teaches it on his instructional video series. So I guess for now, until Albin goes above him we have to all agree that aiming systems are the way to become a champion using the appeal to authority fallacy.......

Or.....Albin is world class and Shane is world class and show two pathways to becoming world class...
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
There is so much that goes into being a top performer in any endeavor. I had an athlete one time whose father won a super bowl as a wide receiver in the nfl. Kid was 6'3", could run like a rabbit, soft hands, and could jump out of the roof. There is no telling how many people I heard comment about how he was "blessed with great genetics", and that he was "born to play in the nfl"/ ( He is currently playing receiver for the Florida Gators)

What they didn't see was that, yes, he was blessed with great God-given talent, but this kid was the hardest worker I have ever been around on the football field. He would stay after practice and run extra routes or catch balls from the juggs machine. He was always the last one out of the weight room, pushing those around him to do one more rep.

I believe that internal drive, that failure is not an option mindset is just as important for those that are genuinely great at their jobs, whatever that may be.

Excellent post, and as true as it gets.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Shane trolled the aiming world.
Nobody freaking gets his I aim different parts of the shaft depending on the contact point. And each shaft is different he said.
He's probably laughing at those who believed him.
Ask Shane racking secrets, he'll ask $10K to teach you.

Shane, just like almost all pros visualize the two balls colliding. To pocket the ob and control the cb.


Corey Deuel even demonstrated shooting sideways and made the ball.
They know where that cue ball has to be to make the ball.
They know the "hit".
And as Tor Lowry suggested, work on your problem shots. There is no shortcut to it.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is so much that goes into being a top performer in any endeavor. I had an athlete one time whose father won a super bowl as a wide receiver in the nfl. Kid was 6'3", could run like a rabbit, soft hands, and could jump out of the roof. There is no telling how many people I heard comment about how he was "blessed with great genetics", and that he was "born to play in the nfl"/ ( He is currently playing receiver for the Florida Gators)

What they didn't see was that, yes, he was blessed with great God-given talent, but this kid was the hardest worker I have ever been around on the football field. He would stay after practice and run extra routes or catch balls from the juggs machine. He was always the last one out of the weight room, pushing those around him to do one more rep.

I believe that internal drive, that failure is not an option mindset is just as important for those that are genuinely great at their jobs, whatever that may be.

Do you think that this kid understood his physical gifts (and pedigree) and so had the extra motivation to work harder? If he knew he had what it takes physically to succeed in the NFL it seems to me that would give anybody tremendous incentive to put in the extra work mentally.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Pretty odd to me that they are absolutely willing to believe the "I just hit balls and got to world class" origin story but the "I use an objective set of instructions to bring me to the shot line" story is not valid. I mean it's not as if someone is claiming to have built a house using a wet paper towel roll as a hammer.
If that weird analogy means making unrealistic claims, then it's exactly like that. There is no fully "objective" aiming system that doesn't ultimately rely on the player's practiced skill at recognizing the correct visual alignment. Maybe instead of "objective" you mean "organized".

pj
chgo
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You've been here longer than me...do you know anything about this "lizard head system" and who came up with it?
TY
Why do you try so hard to embarrass other forum members? Anyway it's more of a harmonica type motion rather than a lizard type motion.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
The ghost ball template is the most effective aiming tool and system imo.
Some systems, as Scotty Frost have said, have ruined a lot of people.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
The ghost ball template is the most effective aiming tool and system imo.
Some systems, as Scotty Frost have said, have ruined a lot of people.

If the player uses the gb template, AND, while looking at the targeted ghostball center, also pays attention to where this aim line is pointing in reference to the object ball edge (as in using fractional aiming), then yes the gb template can be a very effective tool for quickly developing good aiming skill. I think it builds stronger shot recognition when visualizing the collision of the cb and ob, not by aiming for a ghostball center somewhere on the cloth behind the ob, but by aiming straight through the cb to create a known overlap between cb and ob. Using the gb template can help a player see this overlap easier if after lining up for the shot they pay attention to where the aim line is pointing reference to the ob.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don't be too hard on him - it's all he's got.

pj
chgo

Stan used to do the same thing to me. He tried to insult me by calling me Dubious Dan but it turns out I liked the name. So he made it more and more insulting. lol. Birds of a feather, I guess.

I still say it is more of a harmonica playing motion than a lizard. :wink:
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But when a great player says he does use systems then what? Is that not as equally valid as a player saying he doesn't use any systems?

I mean the choice when learning to play IS NOT binary. It's not an either/or situation.

It is literally a Bruce Lee situation, take what works and discard the rest. If you get all that you need to succeed out of just hitting balls then great. If you don't then perhaps any number of methods can help you get what you need.

What is binary is the attitude that objective methods of aiming are somehow detrimental to a person's game. The idea that if you start down the road of exploring and adopting an aiming system that you will never become a good player much less a champion caliber player. Because that is really the message here that the hit-a-million-ballls crowd is promoting. For them it's literally an either/or tradeoff and that simply isn't true.

Then there are the absolutists whose platform seems to be along the lines of everything there is to know about human physiology and neurology is known and thus they are absolutely certain that aiming systems are nothing more than subconscious feel dressed up in an overly complicated set of instructions. The absolutists claim that any benefit derived from the study and use of aiming systems is purely incidental and not objectively related to aiming at all. They like to paint system users as self deluded. If the system user is not a champion then they are attributing any claimed improvement to the system when in fact they might be making more shots because the system has improved their pre-shot routine and not their aim. If the system user is a champion already then the standard line from the absolutists is that that person did not need an aiming system to be a champion and that they were just using a psychological crutch. Absolutists also cling to the 2d math and say if a method cannot be drawn (by an aiming system user) in 2d with an equation attached to it then it cannot be objective or valid.

Pretty odd to me that they are absolutely willing to believe the "I just hit balls and got to world class" origin story but the "I use an objective set of instructions to bring me to the shot line" story is not valid. I mean it's not as if someone is claiming to have built a house using a wet paper towel roll as a hammer.

So yeah, the ENTIRE purpose of this thread seems to me to be to dissuade people from learning and trying aiming systems because allegedly a pro player said he doesn't use any.

Well......the highest rated player on the planet, Shane Van Boening, not only uses an aiming system but he also teaches it on his instructional video series. So I guess for now, until Albin goes above him we have to all agree that aiming systems are the way to become a champion using the appeal to authority fallacy.......

Or.....Albin is world class and Shane is world class and show two pathways to becoming world class...


Lot of good those “objective set of instructions” did you, lol.

Lou Figueroa
John is back
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=489123
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
7
Nobody but a simon pure fool would believe that guys who depend on shooting pool to make a living are going to tell the real truth about what they use and how they put it together to play the game.
Why should they? It's no different than sharing a favorite fishing spot on a lake to a trusted friend. The next time you return to that spot, somebody you never knew will be perched there because "he heard about it from your 'trusted' friend"
And no matter what any pool player on earth says about "I don't use any systems"....they USE SOME TYPE OF SYSTEM OR 'METHOD' TO LINE UP THOSE SHOTS.
That's merely common sense...otherwise you'd never see them go through a PSR and get down to aim. They'd just walk up to the table willy-nilly and fire away anywhere and the balls would go into the pockets.
Pool players, by and large, have very limited vision. Most old ones are still living in the past of Johnston City and all that stuff.
You have an example of that written in your stuff here.......some goofus named Duckie said "there is no such thing as a half-ball hit". (Even the great Mosconi knew better than that)
Gotta' rest my case (no pun intended with the 'case' word) after that.

Oh please. No secret aiming system is going to make you a pro.
Try practicing and playing most of the day everyday for years or decades . And a lot of talent.
The PSR is important so you can deliver that cue ball to the spot you intend to.
 
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Mkindsv

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nobody but a simon pure fool would believe that guys who depend on shooting pool to make a living are going to tell the real truth about what they use and how they put it together to play the game.
Why should they? It's no different than sharing a favorite fishing spot on a lake to a trusted friend. The next time you return to that spot, somebody you never knew will be perched there because "he heard about it from your 'trusted' friend"
And no matter what any pool player on earth says about "I don't use any systems"....they USE SOME TYPE OF SYSTEM OR 'METHOD' TO LINE UP THOSE SHOTS.
That's merely common sense...otherwise you'd never see them go through a PSR and get down to aim. They'd just walk up to the table willy-nilly and fire away anywhere and the balls would go into the pockets.
Pool players, by and large, have very limited vision. Most old ones are still living in the past of Johnston City and all that stuff.
You have an example of that written in your stuff here.......some goofus named Duckie said "there is no such thing as a half-ball hit". (Even the great Mosconi knew better than that)
Gotta' rest my case (no pun intended with the 'case' word) after that.

I don't use a system. Learned 20+ years ago by starting out on a friends table, in the bar with my dad, and by myself in the pool hall when I was able to earn enough money to afford the table time. I learned how to make a shot without a whit of instruction. Picked up a gem here and there from better players, To this day I do not use a system. Not to say I haven't lined a few up to see what they (systems) offer...always seemed to make the game harder than I felt it needed to be. I can run the occasional 6 pack without you leaving your seat, I can also go four or five shots in a row without making a duck...systems are unnecessary (fundamentals more important than many think though), especially for those who are well into their 3rd decade of shooting pool. More power to those that do use "systems", but I find whatever you think makes you better, initially does, because your concentration level goes up (new cue) (new tip)...I think anyone that is truly a great pool player is better at the concentration end of pool than the rest of it...Just my humble opinion.
 
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