That's useful. Thank you!
Interesting shot from AZB's Tin Man
- Thread starter mikepage
- Start date
That's useful. Thank you!
Cool shot! Are the object balls frozen to the rail?Hey guys! Glad some of you enjoyed this one. There’s almost zero practical application, but I love tinkering around on the table.
First of all, the shot requires the right equipment. The rails and balls have to be worn/gritty to some extent. I’ve played this shot on my home table which has slick cloth and it wouldn’t go from that distance. I’d have to have the two balls an inch from the corner. The problem is that you don’t get enough grab from the cue ball to really move the 8, it just slides and rubs the side of the ball slightly. So on most tables I have to set them up close to the pocket and strike the ball very accurately.
But on the equipment last night the cue ball really grabbed and was putting much more pace on the 8 ball than I can normally generate. Mike suggested I back it up from the corner and sure enough we got it close to the middle diamond. In fact on the attempt we recorded the 8 ball was moving fast enough and with enough accuracy we probably could’ve had it another diamond from the corner. We only did two takes, this was just something we found fun and wanted to share.
Maybe I should start with a ball hanging in the pocket, then the combo would make the hanger, the 8 would make the middle ball, and the cue ball could go four rails with inside to make the 8 ball? Hmmm. Something to try today...
PS- to aim just set up like you want to make it rail first with inside, then adjust just slightly so you’ll tickle the edge of the ball going in. Just enough to get the second ball moving.
Couldn't come close on my table - too clean I guess...
pj <- too clean, that musta been it
chgo
I played around with it some on my table. The shot angle and speed have a big effect on how much the CB compresses into the cushion before rebounding and hitting the 8. The spin also tends to throw the 8 toward the rail. On some tables and some shot angles and speed, you might need a gap between the balls (or between the balls and the cushion), depending on how much the cushion compresses.
Regards,
Dave
I wonder the same, though my simonis is is prob 15 yr old
I was able to make it by starting with balls closr to pocket, with ball2 slightly off the rail...cb pushing ball2 repeatedly.
I gave itreal effort. For almost a whole minute or 2.
... or you can just vary how much of the 8 you hit first, with both balls frozen to each other and the cushion. If you hit just the right amount of the 8 before the cushion (by a "hair"), the shot works well, but it ain't easy.
Regards,
Dave
Thank you Mike Page and Tin Man! You guys inspired me to post the following video that includes your shot along with some interesting variations:
NV J.17 - What Would You Do Here, With Both Balls Frozen to the Rail?
Check it out,
Dave
NV J.17 - What Would You Do Here, With Both Balls Frozen to the Rail?
Check it out,
Dave
What do you guys think is the best shot in this situation if you have ball in hand. There have been some good suggestions on YouTube and Facebook, but I'd like to hear what you guys think.
Thanks,
Dave
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frozen ball safety
The best shot here is the safety. The trick is not to shoot it from exactly straight on. The problem with that is they can intentionally foul the 8 along the end rail and tie the ball back up. So instead you shoot it softly from a 20 degree angle or so. Hard enough for the 8 ball to roll just 3 ball widths or so.
The cue ball should end up locked on the 8 at an angle so they can't tie it back up again. Meanwhile the stripe is still near enough the 8 ball that it's hard to hit with a kick shot (the reverse off the side rail kick is harder as the object ball is closer to the 8).
Of course they can still make the kick, or get away with another kick. But there are no guarantees in pool. Just percentages. My make percentage on any of these trick shots is way under my opponents make percentage on the escape kick.
Another way to ask the question is this: If you were playing 8 ball and your opponent was at the table, would you hope they played a lock up safe that would cost you the game if you couldn't execute a successful back up kick shot? Or would you hope they broke the balls open trying something fancy? I'd recommend not allowing your shot selection make your opponents day.
Thanks for the videos. Great stuff!
The best shot here is the safety. The trick is not to shoot it from exactly straight on. The problem with that is they can intentionally foul the 8 along the end rail and tie the ball back up. So instead you shoot it softly from a 20 degree angle or so. Hard enough for the 8 ball to roll just 3 ball widths or so.
The cue ball should end up locked on the 8 at an angle so they can't tie it back up again. Meanwhile the stripe is still near enough the 8 ball that it's hard to hit with a kick shot (the reverse off the side rail kick is harder as the object ball is closer to the 8).
Of course they can still make the kick, or get away with another kick. But there are no guarantees in pool. Just percentages. My make percentage on any of these trick shots is way under my opponents make percentage on the escape kick.
Another way to ask the question is this: If you were playing 8 ball and your opponent was at the table, would you hope they played a lock up safe that would cost you the game if you couldn't execute a successful back up kick shot? Or would you hope they broke the balls open trying something fancy? I'd recommend not allowing your shot selection make your opponents day.
Thanks for the videos. Great stuff!
I agree 100% with your analysis. For those interested, the following video basically covers this and related approaches:
NV G.8 - How to Deal with an End-Game Ball Tied Up with the Black in 8-ball, from Vol. IV of VEEB
Thanks again for posting the shot. It is not very often that I learn a new pool shot, but you taught me one.
FYI, I plan to do a follow-up video with many more safety options. If you or others think of any better shots, let me know and I'll include them. I already have a pretty good list, but I've been surprised before.
Catch you later,
Dave
I don't think that curve-kick is really a viable shot to reply to the safety. That's the kind of shot that at the practice table you can try a bunch of times and adjust and get it working, but not in game, IMO, unless you're Jason Shaw. Even his shot was a last resort in a really weird situation, and the commentators said it was one of the most amazing shots they had ever seen. I almost never see that shot attempted, let alone successfully, from even the best players, not to mention the rest of us. Most people would kick up table or tie it up with the intentional foul, I think.
Great one pocket shot.
Good points. Although, after practicing that shot a bunch, I think I would consider it in a game and have a very good chance of at least getting a hit (either near short rail first, ball first, or off the 2nd long rail). Regardless, I agree with you that the tie-up intentional foul is the right play from that position. All of the offensive options in the video are reckless at best ... but they are still fun to practice.
Regards,
Dave
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Dr. D,
Thanks for posting your video. I always love the slow-mo's to visualize and confirm the physics.
I was wondering to myself, why you would ever shoot the Tin-Mans shot in a game? Then I started thinking. If you just add one or two of your opponents balls on the table, then you are in a much worse strategic position. Depending, but it could possibly be in your best interest to try that shot. Your two corner shots could be the best option as in a particular situation as well.
When I teach my players to "just get a little space between the eight and their opponents ball", I recommend just enough room to get a comfortable hit on the eight if you get ball in hand. Also, if you can just change the angle of the balls slightly so they are not parallel to the rail anymore, that is sometimes a huge advantage.
Anyway, great shot to Tin-Man and thanks to Mr. Page for sharing.
Thanks for posting your video. I always love the slow-mo's to visualize and confirm the physics.
I was wondering to myself, why you would ever shoot the Tin-Mans shot in a game? Then I started thinking. If you just add one or two of your opponents balls on the table, then you are in a much worse strategic position. Depending, but it could possibly be in your best interest to try that shot. Your two corner shots could be the best option as in a particular situation as well.
When I teach my players to "just get a little space between the eight and their opponents ball", I recommend just enough room to get a comfortable hit on the eight if you get ball in hand. Also, if you can just change the angle of the balls slightly so they are not parallel to the rail anymore, that is sometimes a huge advantage.
Anyway, great shot to Tin-Man and thanks to Mr. Page for sharing.
Now that I look at the slow motion footage of the first shot again, I don't think I described the action of the shot totally correctly. I think the CB instead continues to engage and push the 8 with the inside spin.
What do you guys think? Do you think the CB stays engaged, or does it separate from the 8 and then hit it a 2nd time after the spin takes during cushion compression and rebound? The slow motion footage doesn't have quite enough frames to be conclusive one way or the other, IMO.
Regards,
Dave
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You're welcome.
Good points, and I agree that the best safety would prevent the tie-up intentional foul. I will be sure to include this in my follow-up video.
Regards,
Dave
If we could see that slow motion shot on a table with normal rail response, would the CB compress the rail as much as it did here? Imho, the key to making the shot is spongy rails.
Good point, cushion stiffness and ball speed can both have a big effect on this type of shot. On a table with stiffer cushions, you might need to use more ball speed (to get more cushion compression).
But even stiff cushions compress more than you might think.
Regards,
Dave
All of the classic cushion-compression shots work on every table I've tried them on over the years:
cushion compression shot resource page
Enjoy,
Dave
Bang, my thinking exactly!