Mr 600

[jimmyg]

That may be true today but it certainly wasn't true in the 14-1 era even if they hand wiped balls it still is not the same as cleaning the balls in a ball cleaner with polish never mind the cue ball doctoring I hear about , maybe Lou can shed light on these effects

1

Do you know whether it was just the cue that was cleaned and polished, or was it the entire set? Or how often were they cleaned?

Some people are "purists" and if all the balls were polished before every break, that would be quite an advantage...balls spread more and tend not to cluster nearly as easily. Some may say a huge and unfair advantage.

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in NYC during the heyday of straight pool, loved the game and played it hours a day, every day, for years.
Watched one of the greats run his daily hundred many a time...and other than an occasional chalk smudge on the cue ball, cannot recall him, or anyone else, ever cleaning balls just for the purpose of helping the spread and increasing the run, nor would another 300 plus ball runner that I much later had the privilege of playing with regularly.

If this "record" was set with the continual use of a ball cleaner/polisher on the cue ball I would have to believe that the run can easily be considered tainted, if the entire set of balls was continually cleaned/polished, I cannot give it near the respect that some others seem to think it deserves. JMHO

 

[Z-Nole]

What are you nutballs talking about now?

Making up rules after play is over.

626. Likely done. Get on with your day.

I went 65+ mph on a bicycle. Plenty of pros say their max is 60. You think I walka round smiling about that?

Downhill still counts.

 

[pt109]

What are you nutballs talking about now?

Making up rules after play is over.

626. Likely done. Get on with your day.

I went 65+ mph on a bicycle. Plenty of pros say their max is 60. You think I walka round smiling about that?

Speed is relative....I’ve gone 30 mph sitting in a racing bike behind a pacer.

 

[JazzyJeff87]

Do you know whether it was just the cue that was cleaned and polished, or was it the entire set? Or how often were they cleaned?

Some people are "purists" and if all the balls were polished before every break, that would be quite an advantage...balls spread more and tend not to cluster nearly as easily. Some may say a huge and unfair advantage.

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in NYC during the heyday of straight pool, loved the game and played it hours a day, every day, for years.
Watched one of the greats run his daily hundred many a time...and other than an occasional chalk smudge on the cue ball, cannot recall him, or anyone else, ever cleaning balls just for the purpose of helping the spread and increasing the run, nor would another 300 plus ball runner that I much later had the privilege of playing with regularly.

If this "record" was set with the continual use of a ball cleaner/polisher on the cue ball I would have to believe that the run can easily be considered tainted, if the entire set of balls was continually cleaned/polished, I cannot give it near the respect that some others seem to think it deserves. JMHO

It’s all speculation right now but what I saw in some of his other high runs was that after running a hundred or more, maybe over 2 hundred, he got 14 balls in the rack and then rubbed a towel over the top of them and sorta moved the rack around to get at all sides. Not polishing just wiping the grime.

If he’s ever taken them off the table to put in a polishing machine I haven’t seen it but admittedly I haven’t watched many of his attempts over the last year.

If he did take them off and literally polish them during a run I’d maybe snicker a bit.

 

[DynoDan]

Do you know whether it was just the cue that was cleaned and polished, or was it the entire set? Or how often were they cleaned?

Some people are "purists" and if all the balls were polished before every break, that would be quite an advantage...balls spread more and tend not to cluster nearly as easily. Some may say a huge and unfair advantage.

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in NYC during the heyday of straight pool, loved the game and played it hours a day, every day, for years.
Watched one of the greats run his daily hundred many a time...and other than an occasional chalk smudge on the cue ball, cannot recall him, or anyone else, ever cleaning balls just for the purpose of helping the spread and increasing the run, nor would another 300 plus ball runner that I much later had the privilege of playing with regularly.

If this "record" was set with the continual use of a ball cleaner/polisher on the cue ball I would have to believe that the run can easily be considered tainted, if the entire set of balls was continually cleaned/polished, I cannot give it near the respect that some others seem to think it deserves. JMHO

I think it likely, that Willie was able to run over 500 un-cleaned balls only because, on a smaller public table with ‘bucket’ drop pockets (AND of course his super-natural positional skill), he was able to hit every cut shot hard enough to defeat the inevitable ‘skid’ that ends most runs (?).

 

[jimmyg]

Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
Do you know whether it was just the cue that was cleaned and polished, or was it the entire set? Or how often were they cleaned?

Some people are "purists" and if all the balls were polished before every break, that would be quite an advantage...balls spread more and tend not to cluster nearly as easily. Some may say a huge and unfair advantage.

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in NYC during the heyday of straight pool, loved the game and played it hours a day, every day, for years.
Watched one of the greats run his daily hundred many a time...and other than an occasional chalk smudge on the cue ball, cannot recall him, or anyone else, ever cleaning balls just for the purpose of helping the spread and increasing the run, nor would another 300 plus ball runner that I much later had the privilege of playing with regularly.

If this "record" was set with the continual use of a ball cleaner/polisher on the cue ball I would have to believe that the run can easily be considered tainted, if the entire set of balls was continually cleaned/polished, I cannot give it near the respect that some others seem to think it deserves. JMHO

I think it likely, that Willie was able to run over 500 un-cleaned balls only because, on a smaller public table with ‘bucket’ drop pockets (AND of course his super-natural positional skill), he was able to hit every cut shot hard enough to defeat the inevitable ‘skid’ that ends most runs (?).

It's not just Willie, it's the dozens of elite straight pool players, none of which, to my knowledge, cleaned/polished balls during their high runs. One can say "it's cheating" if they wanted to and it would be difficult to argue with. IMO.

 

[ShootingArts]

unnecessary breaks to clean balls seems a little bogus

It's not just Willie, it's the dozens of elite straight pool players, none of which, to my knowledge, cleaned/polished balls during their high runs. One can say "it's cheating" if they wanted to and it would be difficult to argue with. IMO.

I read that the balls were cleaned. I thought that meant in a cleaner but I don't know. If there were pauses just to clean the balls, was that a continuous run? john did a handful of things to help his runs, most admitted to. Did he juice the balls a little? Maybe, but we will probably never know. I have always felt it was an unfair advantage for john and his friends to use a different set of balls at the derby than anyone else in the high run challenge. I wasn't involved, I kept my mouth shut. I have to say I would have been pretty noisy if I was there and had put my dollars up! Indicates to me that john doesn't mind shaving the dice if he can.

I think that john shaved the dice every way he could chasing the record too. It is a done deal now and most will accept the record, a few will be dubious. My math only had four or five people watching in the early claims and some of them were involved with getting the business ready to open. Even if we accept the eight people counted, we have to think they did not match the continuous observation that was claimed on Willie's affidavit. Truth be told, I think that Willie's number is suspiciously high. However, out of thirty-seven people I suspect a few watched every minute of play and quite a few more had overlapping witnessing of the run so that it was observed at all times. Were eight people watching every minute of john's run with bait on their breath? Were they all around the table like thirty-seven would be or were they all on one side even when watching. Same thing with a camera. I haven't seen the viewing angle but the one described could miss a lot.

john pocketed 626 balls. Whether it was what anyone including john would consider a legal run we will never know. An exhibition with the hall closed for most of the exhibition kinda stretches the meaning of the word! john's method of chasing the record made it very boring for onlookers, I doubt more than a few 14.1 die hards actually watched for much more thirty minutes at a stretch.

Some throwing around that 20% of AZB active members will purchase a video is a stretch in my opinion. I would bet it will be closer to 2% than 20%. I bought john's first DVD offered, a 247 ball run. It remains the only straight pool video I purchased and I only did that to support john. I watched it when I got it and again six months or so later. Haven't seen the DVD in ages, I think it has been consigned to the big trash heap in the sky!

Hu

 

[wayne]

I read that the balls were cleaned. I thought that meant in a cleaner but I don't know. If there were pauses just to clean the balls, was that a continuous run? john did a handful of things to help his runs, most admitted to. Did he juice the balls a little? Maybe, but we will probably never know. I have always felt it was an unfair advantage for john and his friends to use a different set of balls at the derby than anyone else in the high run challenge. I wasn't involved, I kept my mouth shut. I have to say I would have been pretty noisy if I was there and had put my dollars up! Indicates to me that john doesn't mind shaving the dice if he can.

I think that john shaved the dice every way he could chasing the record too. It is a done deal now and most will accept the record, a few will be dubious. My math only had four or five people watching in the early claims and some of them were involved with getting the business ready to open. Even if we accept the eight people counted, we have to think they did not match the continuous observation that was claimed on Willie's affidavit. Truth be told, I think that Willie's number is suspiciously high. However, out of thirty-seven people I suspect a few watched every minute of play and quite a few more had overlapping witnessing of the run so that it was observed at all times. Were eight people watching every minute of john's run with bait on their breath? Were they all around the table like thirty-seven would be or were they all on one side even when watching. Same thing with a camera. I haven't seen the viewing angle but the one described could miss a lot.

john pocketed 626 balls. Whether it was what anyone including john would consider a legal run we will never know. An exhibition with the hall closed for most of the exhibition kinda stretches the meaning of the word! john's method of chasing the record made it very boring for onlookers, I doubt more than a few 14.1 die hards actually watched for much more thirty minutes at a stretch.

Some throwing around that 20% of AZB active members will purchase a video is a stretch in my opinion. I would bet it will be closer to 2% than 20%. I bought john's first DVD offered, a 247 ball run. It remains the only straight pool video I purchased and I only did that to support john. I watched it when I got it and again six months or so later. Haven't seen the DVD in ages, I think it has been consigned to the big trash heap in the sky!

Hu

There are 2 over 400 ball runs and a 366 posted on you tube (probably more). The camera angle is extremely clear and it is very easy to view what John is doing.

His record run was validated by the BCA after viewing the video.

Personally, I would trust videos this clear, a lot more than I would a group of people watching.

Here is the 434 ball run. He may have broken Mosconi's record on this attempt except for the weirdest scratch in the world to end his run at 434. Go to the 2hour 6 minute 30 second mark if you want to see the freakiest scratch to end a major run. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf9hRHdA0A8

 

[pt109]

A dirty cue ball can be disconcerting......
....but sometimes having it cleaned can be even more so....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SNg7StWkng

 

[skogstokig]

A dirty cue ball can be disconcerting......
....but sometimes having it cleaned can be even more so....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SNg7StWkng

that's the most british thing i've seen

 

[jay helfert]

I think JS broke a record nobody really cares about.

Just for grins I Googled "John Schmidt 626" and news outlet-wise all I got was the NYTimes piece, BD (duh), a local California TV station and newspaper, some pool related sites and podcasts, and that was it. I'm sure some papers might have picked it up from a wire service but those results didn't come up and hits on the topic pretty much petered out after the first few pages of the search. It is sad but true -- 14.1 is an all but dead version of the game. So it follows that breaking a record at it is going to gain you next to little fanfare.

As to how the PR has been handled, all I can say is: not so good. If they'd been better prepared they certainly could have gotten more mileage out of it. But now, it's not even "news" anymore because it's lost currency. I get why some guys who still love and play 14.1 would get revved up about breaking Mosconi's record but if you wanted to receive some kind of recognition and acclaim you had to be ready. Instead, what has happened (or not) reminds me of the old joke about the dog chasing the car and finally catching it.

Lou Figueroa
now what?

Lou, I'm glad you mentioned the New York Times first. It's only the most widely circulated newspaper in the United States. As far as I'm concerned that is recognition enough. By the way, John's name and his record will be listed in any record of billiard achievements for decades to come, long after you and I are forgotten. How's that for "mileage?"

 

[lfigueroa]

I pretty sure there are more than one in that Billiards Digest article that would say excatly that if they were asked

1

I suspect you are correct.

14.1 players know very well how much polishing the balls affects how easily the balls spread, how it makes the balls slide into the pockets, and makes it easier to draw and follow the CB. there is also the issue of not having to adjust as the run continues and the balls slow up.

All the guys who voiced an opinion would know all of that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

That may be true today but it certainly wasn't true in the 14-1 era even if they hand wiped balls it still is not the same as cleaning the balls in a ball cleaner with polish never mind the cue ball doctoring I hear about , maybe Lou can shed light on these effects

1

In the old days I believe it was somewhat unusual for a room to have a mechanical ball polisher.

Often the balls got cleaned by the counter guy who would wipe them down whenever his mood or the owner dictated. Having said that, it is true that Mosconi would bring his own set of balls to an exhibition and they gleamed like jewels when he brought them out. But I don't recall ever seeing him wipe down the balls once he got going.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, I'm glad you mentioned the New York Times first. It's only the most widely circulated newspaper in the United States. As far as I'm concerned that is recognition enough. By the way, John's name and his record will be listed in any record of billiard achievements for decades to come, long after you and I are forgotten. How's that for "mileage?"

Yes, the NYTimes is widely read and I read it myself every day.

However, the point was mentioned that if you did a Google search using "John Schmidt 626" you'd get dozens of news outlet hits. As it turns out, as of yesterday, that was far, far, far from true.

As to whether JS name will endure as the record breaker, that IMO is highly unlikely. As we've all said, "Records are made to be broken." That includes the 626 ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

In the old days I believe it was somewhat unusual for a room to have a mechanical ball polisher.

Often the balls got cleaned by the counter guy who would wipe them down whenever his mood or the owner dictated. Having said that, it is true that Mosconi would bring his own set of balls to an exhibition and they gleamed like jewels when he brought them out. But I don't recall ever seeing him wipe down the balls once he got going.

Lou Figueroa

Willie would insist on a clean table and inspect it prior to playing his exhibition. He really went over the table carefully before even starting his warm up. I watched him shoot balls off the rails to test them and up and down the table to check the roll. He was the consummate professional. He also kept a towel nearby and would wipe balls down between racks if he felt it necessary. I never saw him pick up and clean the cue ball during a run though. I'm sure he would have considered that a sacrilege.

P.S. You are correct. He played with the set of balls (including the cue ball) that he brought with him to each exhibition.

 

[lfigueroa]

Willie would insist on a clean table and inspect it prior to playing his exhibition. He really went over the table carefully before even starting his warm up. I watched him shoot balls off the rails to test them and up and down the table to check the roll. He was the consummate professional. He also kept a towel nearby and would wipe balls down between racks if he felt it necessary. I never saw him pick up and clean the cue ball during a run though. I'm sure he would have considered that a sacrilege.

P.S. You are correct. He played with the set of balls that he brought with him to each exhibition.

Personally, I never saw him "inspect" a table nor wipe down the balls.

What I did see him do was just rack the set of balls he'd brought, set up a side of the stack break shot and run a couple of racks. That was it.

One of the things that always amazed me (besides the mandatory 100 ball run he's always pull off) was that he'd quickly set up trick shot after trick shot on a strange table and nail every one of them, including some table length masse shots.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

Personally, I never saw him "inspect" a table nor wipe down the balls.

What I did see him do was just rack the set of balls he'd brought, set up a side of the stack break shot and run a couple of racks. That was it.

One of the things that always amazed me (besides the mandatory 100 ball run he's always pull off) was that he'd quickly set up trick shot after trick shot on a strange table and nail every one of them, including some table length masse shots.

Lou Figueroa

I did! But I only saw about two dozen of his exhibitions so what do I know. The sad thing for me was that as he got older he began to forget which trick shots he had already made. He enlisted me more than once to stop him if he started to shoot a shot for the second time. When he was old and vulnerable like that I admired him even more for putting his ass on the line and promising a 100 ball run, and he could still deliver.

 

[lfigueroa]

I did! But I only saw about two dozen of his exhibitions so what do I know. The sad thing for me was that as he got older he began to forget which trick shots he had already made. He enlisted me more than once to stop him if he started to shoot a shot for the second time. When he was old and vulnerable like that I admired him even more for putting his ass on the line and promising a 100 ball run, and he could still deliver.

Touchy, touchy, lol.

What I said was that I had not "personally" seen him wipe down balls. I did not say or imply that it had never happened.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

Touchy, touchy, lol.

What I said was that I had not "personally" seen him wipe down balls. I did not say or imply that it had never happened.

Lou Figueroa

Ha Ha, you're still an ass I see. It is pretty clear what you are implying in the first sentence of your post #774 that is a direct reply to me. :yes:

 

[lfigueroa]

Ha Ha, you're still an ass I see. It is pretty clear what you are implying in the first sentence of your post #774 that is a direct reply to me. :yes:

Very nice, Mr. Helfert.

Well yes, I was responding directly to you in that post -- since I quoted you that should not be a surprise. And, once again, what I was saying was I did not see him do that, never saying or implying it never happened:

#####
Today, 06:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
Willie would insist on a clean table and inspect it prior to playing his exhibition. He really went over the table carefully before even starting his warm up. I watched him shoot balls off the rails to test them and up and down the table to check the roll. He was the consummate professional. He also kept a towel nearby and would wipe balls down between racks if he felt it necessary. I never saw him pick up and clean the cue ball during a run though. I'm sure he would have considered that a sacrilege.

P.S. You are correct. He played with the set of balls that he brought with him to each exhibition.
###
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
Personally, I never saw him "inspect" a table nor wipe down the balls.

What I did see him do was just rack the set of balls he'd brought, set up a side of the stack break shot and run a couple of racks. That was it.

One of the things that always amazed me (besides the mandatory 100 ball run he's always pull off) was that he'd quickly set up trick shot after trick shot on a strange table and nail every one of them, including some table length masse shots.
#####

Lou Figueroa