If I had cues made to my specs, then would it be fair to say that I made them?

[animatedvmaker]

As you guys can see there are several examples from industry to cue making,home building

Whether you like it or not I talked with many big names in pool and everyone thought i was doing right no one suggested anything was underhanded. Everyone i talked to took it for granted that this was such a common practice .

I am sure this will cause hundreds of the same old stating of previous other opinions

For example no one raises an eye brow when I have talked about making the Deano cues,

fact was i never touched the lathe or raw wood,but no one has ever said i didn't make them

Everyone knew Jack made the Libra cues,but he didn't do the labor

My neighboor is an old man who builds houses,he never touched a hammer,yet only a fool would argue he was deceitful.

Way back around 2 017 when jack and i got started talking we said Jack would be using outside labor.

Even this is not necessary

I can see why others might disagree,but they are going too far to say that it was deception

Think about it, I could easily have sold these as mystery cues, why would I go to the trouble to deceive.

My only point is, even if you don't like me or anything about this, does that necessarily mean deception

again the customers are still happy and bought at least half the cues knowing i was using schmelke

I know its no fun to think or give the other guy the benefit of the doubt.

12 years and no complaints, should at lest make you think

Guys like freddie agreeing with me inspite of the fact that their good friends are on the other side

Don't you think it just might be possible, that i might not be a crook

the buyer do or at least did,who can sand firm under this onslaught


i will now let the 10 or so angry men rave on

I think they are 100% afraid to just leave this statement for cooler heads to consider

just consider, who will be first to remove this time fo rconsideration

The person on the wrong side of an argument can never let his opponent have time to state his opinion and allow people to think

he needs to cover up reason with chatter

Okay, so they knew that they were paying $500(?) for a custom made Schmelke (to Jack Potter's specs), and they still wanted the cue?

That was mighty generous of them to overpay (by at least a few hundred dollars, I imagine) for a custom Schmelke.

 

[animatedvmaker]

Those Keebler cookies....not really made by elves apparently.

Sent from the future.

The fantasy of the elves making each and every one of them helps to sell more cookies though.

Just great marketing.

In the end, the cookie must taste good, and have happy customers, or the cookies will no longer sell, no matter who made them, or how great the marketing was.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

If you say you crapped in the toilet, but you never crapped in the toilet, then the crap in the toilet is not your crap. Its just crap. Hope this helps.

That’s better than the reply I intended to make. I think the virus has mental as well as physical symptoms.

 

[stumpie71]

I had 2 predator cues purchased in 96, ex still has both. A 96-3@4 and both made by Falcon. Predator did not hide the fact they were not making the cues.

Ford, Mazda, etc make vehicles for each other. Ford,Mazda, Toyota,etc doesn't hide the fact who makes those vehicles.

Wonder how many people would be happy if they purchased a Jerry Franklin era SW only to learn it isn't a SW but a SW tribute made by ABC-XYZ Cues.

 

[animatedvmaker]

I have read over the years that Mike Sigel may have done the same thing, with his line of custom cues.

He may have just overseen the production of them, and then signed his name on each one before they were finished.

By the way, I am not referring to the super cheap line of Mike Sigel cues that he had imported from China, which I have seen some sellers try to sell off as true customs made by him, because they are like night and day, when compared to the quality of his customs that he / himself signed.

I am sure that whoever made them was a very good cue maker though, because his customs were excellent hitting cues, and very good quality, in my opinion.

 

[Snooker Theory]

I had 2 predator cues purchased in 96, ex still has both. A 96-3@4 and both made by Falcon. Predator did not hide the fact they were not making the cues.

Ford, Mazda, etc make vehicles for each other. Ford,Mazda, Toyota,etc doesn't hide the fact who makes those vehicles.

Wonder how many people would be happy if they purchased a Jerry Franklin era SW only to learn it isn't a SW but a SW tribute made by ABC-XYZ Cues.

Amen!!!!!

I mean if I give Schmekle specs for a Rambow and furnish the following....
what tip.
what ferrule and length..
what butt cap and how long.
what pin..
what collars.
the taper.
shaft diameter.
diameter of the joint.
balance point.
diameter at the beginning of the wrap.
diameter at the end of the wrap.
diameter at the butt cap.
the weight.
the type of wrap


Well clearly I could advertise the cue and sell the cue as a Rambow, duh. And nobody can commit on my sales practices unless they bought one of my "Rambow Cues"

ROFLMAO

If I was a scammer I know exactly the folks I would target in this thread.

 

[animatedvmaker]

I had 2 predator cues purchased in 96, ex still has both. A 96-3@4 and both made by Falcon. Predator did not hide the fact they were not making the cues.

Ford, Mazda, etc make vehicles for each other. Ford,Mazda, Toyota,etc doesn't hide the fact who makes those vehicles.

Wonder how many people would be happy if they purchased a Jerry Franklin era SW only to learn it isn't a SW but a SW tribute made by ABC-XYZ Cues.

Yeah, I can't imagine they would be happy, and would demand a refund from whoever conned them out of their money.

It was a very smart move by Predator to chose very good cue makers, with a really great customer rep, to build their cues.

Falcon cues were very high quality, in my opinion. And they were excellent hitting cues, in my experience with them.

If Predator had chosen Schmelke to build their cues, then I just can't imagine that they would have gotten as popular as they did. Sorry to the Schmelke fans out there. Just my opinion.

Also, I understand that Schmelke builds blanks, and many cue makers use their blanks to build their custom cues. This is very different though, in my opinion.

If Jack Potter had used Schmelke parts to build cues, then it would be fair to call them customs by Jack Potter, but that is not the case.

 

[animatedvmaker]

Amen!!!!!

I mean if I give Schmekle specs for a Rambow and furnish the following....
what tip.
what ferrule and length..
what butt cap and how long.
what pin..
what collars.
the taper.
shaft diameter.
diameter of the joint.
balance point.
diameter at the beginning of the wrap.
diameter at the end of the wrap.
diameter at the butt cap.
the weight.
the type of wrap


Well clearly I could advertise the cue and sell the cue as a Rambow, duh. And nobody can commit on my sales practices unless they bought one of my "Rambow Cues"

ROFLMAO

If I was a scammer I know exactly the folks I would target in this thread.

This is off topic, but I wonder if Schmelke has the ability to build that nice of a custom cue, with sharp points and veneers, for example. To include a nice highly figured BEM forearm, and the coring needed to go with it.

Most of the cues they make are very simple, like merry widows, and sneaky style cues, and do not have many inlays in them.

I mean, they were never what I would consider to be custom cue maker.

They build banks, and production cues, which they can do pretty basic customizations to, like tip, ferrule, taper, weight, and things like that. Not sure if they could, or would be willing to build you a true custom cue, to all of the specs that you would like in your dream custom cue.

Here is a pic of what I believe is their highest end production cue, which is $440.

 

[Johnny Rosato]

You guys realize you are arguing with Justin (animatedvmaker), right?

Thread from a couple days ago under this user name.
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=510455

Older threads under his original name.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5908636&postcount=52
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5908636&postcount=52

It took me a little while, but the mention of Carbondale did it.

I originally thought he was Poolfan101 also, kind of a 2 names-hedge his bets kind of thing. Still not positive one way or the other there. But this one has been identified.

Youre welcome!
:wink2:

You nailed this one River.
I went back on some posts and looks like subtle changes in his writing style, but now that you mention it, it's obvious as a hat on a horse.

 

[animatedvmaker]

You nailed this one River.
I went back on some posts and looks like subtle changes in his writing style, but now that you mention it, it's obvious as a hat on a horse.

Lol, you guys catch everything. I knew that if I mentioned Carbondale, I would be giving myself away, because what are the odds of 2 completely different pool players posting on AZB that were from the same small city, and same era? Lol, or maybe it is just impossible for me to change the way I write the things that I think about.

 

[Snooker Theory]

You nailed this one River.
I went back on some posts and looks like subtle changes in his writing style, but now that you mention it, it's obvious as a hat on a horse.

Yes clear as day. I never minded Justin, but yes river city called that.

 

[logical]

As you guys can see there are several examples from industry to cue making,home building

Whether you like it or not I talked with many big names in pool and everyone thought i was doing right no one suggested anything was underhanded. Everyone i talked to took it for granted that this was such a common practice .

I am sure this will cause hundreds of the same old stating of previous other opinions

For example no one raises an eye brow when I have talked about making the Deano cues,

fact was i never touched the lathe or raw wood,but no one has ever said i didn't make them

Everyone knew Jack made the Libra cues,but he didn't do the labor

My neighboor is an old man who builds houses,he never touched a hammer,yet only a fool would argue he was deceitful.

Way back around 2 017 when jack and i got started talking we said Jack would be using outside labor.

Even this is not necessary

I can see why others might disagree,but they are going too far to say that it was deception

Think about it, I could easily have sold these as mystery cues, why would I go to the trouble to deceive.

My only point is, even if you don't like me or anything about this, does that necessarily mean deception

again the customers are still happy and bought at least half the cues knowing i was using schmelke

I know its no fun to think or give the other guy the benefit of the doubt.

12 years and no complaints, should at lest make you think

Guys like freddie agreeing with me inspite of the fact that their good friends are on the other side

Don't you think it just might be possible, that i might not be a crook

the buyer do or at least did,who can sand firm under this onslaught


i will now let the 10 or so angry men rave on

I think they are 100% afraid to just leave this statement for cooler heads to consider

just consider, who will be first to remove this time fo rconsideration

The person on the wrong side of an argument can never let his opponent have time to state his opinion and allow people to think

he needs to cover up reason with chatter

I missed this somehow yesterday. Too bad, I could have used a good laugh.

The idea that flat out lying about who is actually made the cues is the same as any other contract manufacturing situation is delusional. That stunt you pulled in the thread you started a few days ago tells us all you simply have no moral compass. You started a thread with one story, let it run for a few days, and then completely rewrote the OP to make it look like people were unfairly attacking you.

 

[Johnny Rosato]

Lol, you guys catch everything. I knew that if I mentioned Carbondale, I would be giving myself away, because what are the odds of 2 completely different pool players posting on AZB that were from the same small city, and same era? Lol, or maybe it is just impossible for me to change the way I write the things that I think about.

Welcome back. I, for one, have sometimes missed your posts/replies! lol

 

[trinacria]

As you guys can see there are several examples from industry to cue making,home building

Whether you like it or not I talked with many big names in pool and everyone thought i was doing right no one suggested anything was underhanded. Everyone i talked to took it for granted that this was such a common practice .

I am sure this will cause hundreds of the same old stating of previous other opinions

For example no one raises an eye brow when I have talked about making the Deano cues,

fact was i never touched the lathe or raw wood,but no one has ever said i didn't make them

Everyone knew Jack made the Libra cues,but he didn't do the labor

My neighboor is an old man who builds houses,he never touched a hammer,yet only a fool would argue he was deceitful.

Way back around 2 017 when jack and i got started talking we said Jack would be using outside labor.

Even this is not necessary

I can see why others might disagree,but they are going too far to say that it was deception

Think about it, I could easily have sold these as mystery cues, why would I go to the trouble to deceive.

My only point is, even if you don't like me or anything about this, does that necessarily mean deception

again the customers are still happy and bought at least half the cues knowing i was using schmelke

I know its no fun to think or give the other guy the benefit of the doubt.

12 years and no complaints, should at lest make you think

Guys like freddie agreeing with me inspite of the fact that their good friends are on the other side

Don't you think it just might be possible, that i might not be a crook

the buyer do or at least did,who can sand firm under this onslaught


i will now let the 10 or so angry men rave on

I think they are 100% afraid to just leave this statement for cooler heads to consider

just consider, who will be first to remove this time fo rconsideration

The person on the wrong side of an argument can never let his opponent have time to state his opinion and allow people to think

he needs to cover up reason with chatter

ummm, no. you used your reputation to swindle buyers. you can try and talk your way out of it but a fact is a fact. you thought, these idiots think im an honest person, ill get away with selling a small batch of inexpensive cues for a %500% markup, you made a fast profit, but got caught. which now makes you a deceitful salesman whos swindled people here before, and will likely do it again. if you were a business owner and one of your employees was caught stealing, youd trust him or her again? nope, you would not, bc they'll do it again. the more you talk, the more of a bullshit artist you come out to be

 

[td873]

If I had a cue maker build me a line of cues, that I designed, and asked the cue maker to put my own unique custom logo on them, then would it be fair to market the cues as custom cues made by myself?

I keep hearing of people doing this, and it just does not seem right.

If you did not build the cue, then do not try to deceive people by saying that you were the cue maker.

For example, I have read that Adam / Helmstetter built a line of cues for this one guy, to his specs, and his designs, and he turned around, and marketed the cues as "custom cues" made by him.

There just seems to be so much deception in this sport, with dishonest marketing, and doing anything possible to get sales.

People need to start being honest about every aspect of the product that they are selling, and if they can't do that, or are unwilling to do that, then they should not be trying to sell that product.

White label goods. Happens all the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-label_product

-td

 

[Cron]

White label goods. Happens all the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-label_product

-td

White labeling is so that the retailer does _NOT_ have to attribute make by concealing origin. White labeling is used when you want to sell a cheaper or unfinished product but don't won't the association of "made" by you (you just want to market it). The wiki link you posted describes this process. However, at no point is the "make" falsified if revealed, so I'm not sure the OP would want or find this useful.

The automobile examples in this thread are out the window too because of disclosure (which is why people even know these details to begin with). If the OP followed suit, he could slap a logo on it but would disclose the makers in full.

With zero academic study in law, the more I read this thread the more it appears to be fraudulent to state "made by me" in the OP context. Now if the OP owned a certain percentage of say Schmelke, how Ford owns 1/3 of Mazda, then sure (although the complete omission of partner holdings is almost certainly fraudulent in some FTC/Tax fashion).

 

[megatron69]

If I had a cue maker build me a line of cues, that I designed, and asked the cue maker to put my own unique custom logo on them, then would it be fair to market the cues as custom cues made by myself?

I keep hearing of people doing this, and it just does not seem right.

If you did not build the cue, then do not try to deceive people by saying that you were the cue maker.

For example, I have read that Adam / Helmstetter built a line of cues for this one guy, to his specs, and his designs, and he turned around, and marketed the cues as "custom cues" made by him.

There just seems to be so much deception in this sport, with dishonest marketing, and doing anything possible to get sales.

People need to start being honest about every aspect of the product that they are selling, and if they can't do that, or are unwilling to do that, then they should not be trying to sell that product.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what your upset about. This is completely normal in every corner of manufacturing you can think of. American car makers have parts built in foreign countries then shipped to the U.S. for assembly. American car makers have entire cars built elsewhere and then brought here for final assembly and then tout them as "Made in America."

American gun makers (Browning, Winchester and others) have had ENTIRE guns made in other countries and then shipped here for final assembly, or even just so they could etch their logo on the gun. This btw, has been going on since before you were born.

American fly rod makers routinely have Chinese or Korean manufacturers build fly rods to their specs and then turn around and sell them as "American made" because they paint them here and/or installed a few bits of metal here and there. The story that comes vividly to mind is a fly rod builder had a debilitating disease that took his ability to use his hands from him. So he taught his wife to build fly rods, and then sold them under his name. These were considered some of the finest modern dry fly fly rods ever built from graphite. When i bought mine I had no idea his wife built my rod until a year later when my buddy who's a close friend of the family told me the story.

Heck, I even owned two cues that were designed here in the U.S. but almost entirely built in China or the Philippines. Both turned out to be not what I hoped for, but that's for a different thread. The point is that I bought those cues after being told that they were 'built' in the U.S., meaning they were designed here and final assembly occurred here. But most of the 'building' really took place elsewhere.

 

[animatedvmaker]

I'm sorry, but I don't see what your upset about. This is completely normal in every corner of manufacturing you can think of. American car makers have parts built in foreign countries then shipped to the U.S. for assembly. American car makers have entire cars built elsewhere and then brought here for final assembly and then tout them as "Made in America."

American gun makers (Browning, Winchester and others) have had ENTIRE guns made in other countries and then shipped here for final assembly, or even just so they could etch their logo on the gun. This btw, has been going on since before you were born.

American fly rod makers routinely have Chinese or Korean manufacturers build fly rods to their specs and then turn around and sell them as "American made" because they paint them here and/or installed a few bits of metal here and there. The story that comes vividly to mind is a fly rod builder had a debilitating disease that took his ability to use his hands from him. So he taught his wife to build fly rods, and then sold them under his name. These were considered some of the finest modern dry fly fly rods ever built from graphite. When i bought mine I had no idea his wife built my rod until a year later when my buddy who's a close friend of the family told me the story.

Heck, I even owned two cues that were designed here in the U.S. but almost entirely built in China or the Philippines. Both turned out to be not what I hoped for, but that's for a different thread. The point is that I bought those cues after being told that they were 'built' in the U.S., meaning they were designed here and final assembly occurred here. But most of the 'building' really took place elsewhere.

I wonder, do you feel that the price you paid (if you paid retail) for the cues was a fair value, even after you learned that they were not made in the US?

If you were to go to the Mcdermott website, and look at their Star and Lucky line of pool cues, they say that they are "Manufactured globally". They are not trying to deceive anyone into thinking that they were made in the US, by Mcdermott, and they price their import lines of cues fairly, for what they are.

The same can be said for the line of the low end line of cues that Viking imports from China, or wherever. They are priced reasonably, and they are not trying to deceive anyone about where they were made, or the quality of the product that you will be receiving from that product.

Would you pay Joss prices for Schmelke quality? Sorry, no offence to Schmelke, but Joss, for example, is a much higher quality product, in my opinion.

For example, If Joss decided to have a lower end line of cues built by some other cue manufacturer, and had Schmelke make them that line of cues, you would want to know that you were not getting a Joss quality product, right?

I just do not know of any US cue manufactures that have tried to deceive their customers.

 

[cueman]

Yeah, I understand. Just like Predator has had a line of cues made by Jacoby. They are still Predator cues, even though Predator did not make them.

But what if you switched that around. What if Jacoby had a line of cues made by Predator, and marketed them as cues custom made by Jacoby? That just does not seem right, because people who purchased the Jacoby might think they were getting a US made custom cue, and instead they would be getting a product that was made in China. That is a horrible example though, because the cue could have been made by anyone, but just because Jacoby designed the cue to their specs, they still have the right to say it is a Jacoby custom cue?

Please understand, the above is just a made up example.

Let's say the above was true just for example.. Predator is a brand name and those cues would be 100 percent Predator. Here is why. Predator hired someone to make the cues whether in their own shop or in someone else's shop they are still hired to build Predator cues.

 

[cueman]

A while back, I wanted a shaft made for one of my cues and then I decided to go ahead and have a whole cue made that would match the dimensions of another cue I had and I could use the shaft on more than one cue.

I bought the MOST EXPENSIVE 4-prong blank that Schmelke sold...purple heart into an ebony front.

I also had David pick the BEST shaft he could find (they called them something like "select" and you paid extra for them).

I told them what tip.
I told them what ferrule and length..
I told them what butt cap and how long.
I told them what pin..
I told them what collars.
I told them the taper.
I told them the shaft diameter.
I told them the diameter of the joint.
I told them the balance point.
I told them the diameter at the beginning of the wrap.
I told them the diameter at the end of the wrap.
I told them the diameter at the butt cap.
I told them the weight.
I told them the type of wrap.

Other than adding some sort of "bling", how much more could I have customized it?

None of the specs were what Schmelke sold as "stock" production cues.

Was that a Schmelke mass-production cue or a custom cue?

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=447538&highlight=ebony+purple+heart

That is a Schmelke Custom Cue.