If I had cues made to my specs, then would it be fair to say that I made them?

[cueman]

I have read over the years that Mike Sigel may have done the same thing, with his line of custom cues.

He may have just overseen the production of them, and then signed his name on each one before they were finished.

By the way, I am not referring to the super cheap line of Mike Sigel cues that he had imported from China, which I have seen some sellers try to sell off as true customs made by him, because they are like night and day, when compared to the quality of his customs that he / himself signed.

I am sure that whoever made them was a very good cue maker though, because his customs were excellent hitting cues, and very good quality, in my opinion.

I talked to Mike and I believe he made the high end custom cues himself. He has had several lines of signature cues made by others also. He spent a small fortune with Bludworth setting uo a really nice shop at one time so he could build cues.

 

[cueman]

This is off topic, but I wonder if Schmelke has the ability to build that nice of a custom cue, with sharp points and veneers, for example. To include a nice highly figured BEM forearm, and the coring needed to go with it.

Most of the cues they make are very simple, like merry widows, and sneaky style cues, and do not have many inlays in them.

I mean, they were never what I would consider to be custom cue maker.

They build banks, and production cues, which they can do pretty basic customizations to, like tip, ferrule, taper, weight, and things like that. Not sure if they could, or would be willing to build you a true custom cue, to all of the specs that you would like in your dream custom cue.

Here is a pic of what I believe is their highest end production cue, which is $440.

After the Schmelke family went into the International Cuemakers Hall of Fame I had them build a custom cue for me that is much nicer than the one you posted here. I provided the snakewood they used in the cue.

 

[Cornerman]

Let's say the above was true just for example.. Predator is a brand name and those cues would be 100 percent Predator. Here is why. Predator hired someone to make the cues whether in their own shop or in someone else's shop they are still hired to build Predator cues.

Exactly, Chris. Thanks for chiming in.

 

[Cornerman]

White label goods. Happens all the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-label_product

-td

Every day. It's common practice. It's called "outsourcing."

Every day, people are buying products that they just assume are made by the brand name on the label. And yes, companies will say they "make" such and such. There's no deceit Maybe it's because I'm part of that industry and the fact that many cue brands outsource some if not all the work of certain cues to other companies, I personally didn't get hurt by the way Dean went about selling these Jackpot cues other than selling on the Main Forum. I'm not the only person by a long shot on this forum that understand these things. I think others just don't want to get caught up in the mud. I get why people feel the deceit if maybe they don't realize that contract cue building is a real, non-deceit thing, but this is IMO way overboard and mob mentality.

I see some examples in the cue world on this thread recently that aren't too different: Predator and Mike Sigel. Sigel's lower end Asian-made cues are marketed as Mike Sigel cues, but they weren't built by him. His high-end cues were made by him, for sure. Predator is a known brand, but they're not making the cues in Jacksonville, FL. They outsourced for years. Revo's are made by Predator in Boston, but if they can get the same specs built in Asia, I can't see them not doing that eventually. And they'll be Revo's by Predator, similar to what Chris Hightower is saying.

Other examples have been given throughout this thread. Schuler Cues is another example. One could argue Adam Cues in Japan in the days of Richard Helmstetter weren't built by Adam Cues in Japan. They were built *for* Adam Cues Japan by Yuji Miki and his established cuebuiling company. They weren't physically made by Richard Helmstetter or Adam Cue.

 

[Cron]

Let's say the above was true just for example.. Predator is a brand name and those cues would be 100 percent Predator. Here is why. Predator hired someone to make the cues whether in their own shop or in someone else's shop they are still hired to build Predator cues.

The question from the OP was if using the word "made" without any further disclosure of their make would be legal, that is how I read the question. I think the OP might of really been asking wether or not it's O.K. to retail sticks under his own brand (of course yes).

If Predator is the bar, find the word made on this page...

https://www.predatorcues.com/pool-cues/25th-anniversary-limited-edition-cues/25th-anniversary-limited-edition-cues-cp-pre-le-cat-1/

... it's not there, but design is so disclosure is.

In fact, i think you overlooked your own words, as they imply Predator didn't make them... "Predator hired someone to make....

Is it O.K. to buy a dozen sticks from Predator, claim you're the sole maker of them, then flip them on e-bay? Again though, I think people in this thread are forgetting how the word "made" is used in the OP context (that or people do not agree with its usage in trade).

I don't see how this usage of the word "made" would be legal here. For instance, what if you were selling pharmaceuticals but never disclosed they were made by a drug cartel?

Given the recent drama here, I think straws are being grasped for justification.

 

[Snooker Theory]

At the end of the day if you are a seller of cues, write down who in these threads is ok with this kinda stuff and market them cues in the future.

They won't complain and will defend ya, so easie peasie money made easy.

 

[animatedvmaker]

I talked to Mike and I believe he made the high end custom cues himself. He has had several lines of signature cues made by others also. He spent a small fortune with Bludworth setting uo a really nice shop at one time so he could build cues.

Okay, that is interesting. I remember hearing that Bludworth ran a cue making school, where he would personally teach people how to build cues.

 

[alstl]

And what about the Mazda Trucks built by Ford...

I owned one of those and it had the same issues as every other Ford I ever owned. Got it relatively cheap and didn't realize it was a Ford when I bought it. Traded it for a Toyota Tacoma which I still drive and have had zero problems.

It's deceptive advertising.

Someone mentioned Balabushka. He outsourced the forearm but the rest was built by him with his hands. That's entirely different from someone putting their name on a cue built by someone else. Balabushka didn't buy full cues and claim he built them.

 

[Cornerman]

I owned one of those and it had the same issues as every other Ford I ever owned. Got it relatively cheap and didn't realize it was a Ford when I bought it. Traded it for a Toyota Tacoma which I still drive and have had zero problems.

It's deceptive advertising.

I think this is the crux of the whole anger at Dean. You believe that what Mazda has done is deceit. And that's totally your prerogative. I see it as normal contract manufacturing and outsourcing. If we're far apart on the Mazda issue, we're further apart on Dean.

That doesn't make you wrong, and it doesn't make me an apologist for Mazda.

 

[animatedvmaker]

After the Schmelke family went into the International Cuemakers Hall of Fame I had them build a custom cue for me that is much nicer than the one you posted here. I provided the snakewood they used in the cue.

I never had a high opinion of Schmelke cues, because to me, they always seemed to be very cheap quality from the looks of the ones that I seen in person, as a kid, in the 90's.

They had very odd looking joint pins, which were very unique, but very cheap looking, in my opinion, and overall, they just looked cheap. I can't recall ever trying one out though.

In recent years, I have read nothing but praise about the quality and hit of their cues though, and was also surprised to learn that many custom cue makers have ordered Blanks from them to use to build their cues.

Would love to see a pic of the cue you had them build for you, or any pics from anyone who had them build a custom cue.

I still find it hard to imagine any custom Schmelke looking all that nice.

 

[Cron]

At the end of the day if you are a seller of cues, write down who in these threads is ok with this kinda stuff and market them cues in the future.

They won't complain and will defend ya, so easie peasie money made easy.

Is there already a blacklist? I looked but either missed it or it's not their.

Out of curiosity, I *think* I asked the FTC, but it's rrrrrrrrrrreally a stretch that I'll get a response without making a compliant. . But if anyone is EXTREMELY curious (I am not), here's the link to factually use your tax dollars and use your citizenship to put a bullet in it (they don't bite, but they may not bark).

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

 

[animatedvmaker]

Every day. It's common practice. It's called "outsourcing."

Every day, people are buying products that they just assume are made by the brand name on the label. And yes, companies will say they "make" such and such. There's no deceit Maybe it's because I'm part of that industry and the fact that many cue brands outsource some if not all the work of certain cues to other companies, I personally didn't get hurt by the way Dean went about selling these Jackpot cues other than selling on the Main Forum. I'm not the only person by a long shot on this forum that understand these things. I think others just don't want to get caught up in the mud. I get why people feel the deceit if maybe they don't realize that contract cue building is a real, non-deceit thing, but this is IMO way overboard and mob mentality.

I see some examples in the cue world on this thread recently that aren't too different: Predator and Mike Sigel. Sigel's lower end Asian-made cues are marketed as Mike Sigel cues, but they weren't built by him. His high-end cues were made by him, for sure. Predator is a known brand, but they're not making the cues in Jacksonville, FL. They outsourced for years. Revo's are made by Predator in Boston, but if they can get the same specs built in Asia, I can't see them not doing that eventually. And they'll be Revo's by Predator, similar to what Chris Hightower is saying.

Other examples have been given throughout this thread. Schuler Cues is another example. One could argue Adam Cues in Japan in the days of Richard Helmstetter weren't built by Adam Cues in Japan. They were built *for* Adam Cues Japan by Yuji Miki and his established cuebuiling company. They weren't physically made by Richard Helmstetter or Adam Cue.

On the topic of Helmstetter, he did once come on here, and said that he did have a cue making facility in Japan. I do not see any reason for him to have lied about that, because he had left the cue making business ages ago. He is not involved with Adam cues anymore, and I understand they are now made in China, but I wonder where their high end line of Musashi cues are built. I assume they are built in Japan, but I assume that they are not built by Miki, because Miki left Adam cues when he started Mezz cues, back in the mid 90's.

 

[Cornerman]

On the topic of Helmstetter, he did once come on here, and said that he did have a cue making facility in Japan. I do not see any reason for him to have lied about that, because he had left the cue making business ages ago. He is not involved with Adam cues anymore, and I understand they are now made in China, but I wonder where their high end line of Musashi cues are built. I assume they are built in Japan, but I assume that they are not built by Miki, because Miki left Adam cues when he started Mezz cues, back in the mid 90's.

Through my interviews, the vast vast vast majority of the Adam Cues built "by Adam Cue Japan" were by Yuri Miki and his company. Richard was hired to setup the equipment (Mike was already an established cuemaker) and as far as Adam Cues and only Adam Cues are concerned, Richard was the shop supervisor. They were built by the Miki Company. The exclusive contract was that Miki could only build cues for Adam Cues.

Richard *did* make cues while in Japan. But Miki built Adam Cues (which included the Stamboulinis, Helmstetters, etc. )

Once Miki got out of the contract, he was free to build cues under whatever brand he chose.

 

[HawaiianEye]

On the topic of Helmstetter, he did once come on here, and said that he did have a cue making facility in Japan. I do not see any reason for him to have lied about that, because he had left the cue making business ages ago. He is not involved with Adam cues anymore, and I understand they are now made in China, but I wonder where their high end line of Musashi cues are built. I assume they are built in Japan, but I assume that they are not built by Miki, because Miki left Adam cues when he started Mezz cues, back in the mid 90's.

Whether he "owned" the company or not, I have been to the Adam factory in Japan when Dick was there and he gave me a tour back in the early 80s. He had a Japanese worker put an ivory ferrule on one of my Richard Black shafts.

 

[garczar]

On the topic of Helmstetter, he did once come on here, and said that he did have a cue making facility in Japan. I do not see any reason for him to have lied about that, because he had left the cue making business ages ago. He is not involved with Adam cues anymore, and I understand they are now made in China, but I wonder where their high end line of Musashi cues are built. I assume they are built in Japan, but I assume that they are not built by Miki, because Miki left Adam cues when he started Mezz cues, back in the mid 90's.

Musashi cues are hand-made in a shop in Sayama, Japan. The rest of ADAM stuff is made in same factory as Predator and Lucasi.

 

[animatedvmaker]

Whether he "owned" the company or not, I have been to the Adam factory in Japan when Dick was there and he gave me a tour back in the early 80s. He had a Japanese worker put an ivory ferrule on one of my Richard Black shafts.

Interesting. I guess putting Ivory in cues was legal at that time, in Japan.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Interesting. I guess putting Ivory in cues was legal at that time, in Japan.

Putting ivory in a cue has never been illegal....

 

[animatedvmaker]

Musashi cues are hand-made in a shop in Sayama, Japan. The rest of ADAM stuff is made in same factory as Predator and Lucasi.

Probably a shop similar to Schon for example(?) who has very few employees, who are building the cues?

I think it is really great that Adam chose a really good cue maker in China to build their cues. I have so much respect for the quality of Lucasi cues, and other cues, like Universal, Peri, and Fury.

Everyone knows that Predator cues are high quality, but I think that some of the lesser known cues, that I mentioned above deserve just as much respect, because they are just as high quality as Predator.

Like you have said, most of them are made in that same state of the art cue making factory as Predator and Lucasi.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Probably a shop similar to Schon for example(?) who has very few employees, who are building the cues?

I think it is really great that Adam chose a really good cue maker in China to build their cues. I have so much respect for the quality of Lucasi cues, and other cues, like Universal, Peri, and Fury.

Everyone knows that Predator cues are high quality, but I think that some of the lesser known cues, that I mentioned above deserve just as much respect, because they are just as high quality as Predator.

Like you have said, most of them are made in that same state of the art cue making factory as Predator and Lucasi.

You’re throwing around a bunch of names of companies that you think have their cues made by Hamson. Fury, Peri, etc, are NOT made at Hamson. They have their own factories.

 

[garczar]

Probably a shop similar to Schon for example(?) who has very few employees, who are building the cues?

I think it is really great that Adam chose a really good cue maker in China to build their cues. I have so much respect for the quality of Lucasi cues, and other cues, like Universal, Peri, and Fury.

Everyone knows that Predator cues are high quality, but I think that some of the lesser known cues, that I mentioned above deserve just as much respect, because they are just as high quality as Predator.

Like you have said, most of them are made in that same state of the art cue making factory as Predator and Lucasi.

Peri is made by Weilu. Weilu is one big outfit. They make cues, tables, balls(parent co. of Cyclop). Fury is made by KaoKao.