Drawing the object ball

[Tin Man]

Dr. Dave, this one is for you. Happy Thanksgiving!

When shooting a rolling cue ball into a rail it rebounds with natural roll. When shooting into a double kiss, however, it slides backwards and is still spinning the same direction in which case it acts like draw. It occurred to me that if you could get an object ball fully rolling it could achieve the same action, so I set up the shot in this video. Jesse Engle is shooting the shot. He is using a little draw and the distance between the object balls to ensure the 2 ball is fully rolling upon contacting the 4. As a result after double kissing backwards it 'draws' off the 3 ball into the 9 for the win. It is hard to control and I doubt it's practical in a game, but this game is made to be fun and it was satisfying to turn a brainstorm into a reality.

 

[boogieman]

Damn, I feel this, but I've never heard anyone talk about this before.

 

[straightline]

Dr. Dave, this one is for you. Happy Thanksgiving!

When shooting a rolling cue ball into a rail it rebounds with natural roll. When shooting into a double kiss, however, it slides backwards and is still spinning the same direction in which case it acts like draw. It occurred to me that if you could get an object ball fully rolling it could achieve the same action, so I set up the shot in this video. Jesse Engle is shooting the shot. He is using a little draw and the distance between the object balls to ensure the 2 ball is fully rolling upon contacting the 4. As a result after double kissing backwards it 'draws' off the 3 ball into the 9 for the win. It is hard to control and I doubt it's practical in a game, but this game is made to be fun and it was satisfying to turn a brainstorm into a reality.

I think referring to the kiss-back as draw is erroneous. The ball bounces/glances like in a normal rolling collision; maybe some slight reverse gearing. Then it gets re-struck; the final carom an average of the carom and residual forward roll.

 

[jay helfert]

Interesting shot and well conceived. I saw a double kiss and a billiard to make the nine. This shot could have been made directly off the four ball as well. Even more interesting to me was seeing Jesse Engle shoot this shot. For those of you who don't remember, Jesse was an up and coming young champion several years ago who pretty much dropped out of sight after making his mark in several big tournaments. He must have gone "straight."

 

[bbb]

Very nice use of the physics of pool
if you play the video in slow motion you can see the rotation on the 2 ball and see it continue the rotation after contact
very cool
thanks for showing the shot

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave, this one is for you. Happy Thanksgiving!

Thanks. Belated Happy Thanksgiving to you and everybody else also!

When shooting a rolling cue ball into a rail it rebounds with natural roll.

Actually, under typical conditions, a ball rolling straight into a cushion rebounds with stun (although, roll eventually develops). Here are some demonstrations:

• HSV B.15 – straight-on kick shot rebound losses and spin changes for roll, stun, and draw shots
• NV B.18 – Kick shot cue ball hold shot example with Tom Ross

When shooting into a double kiss, however, it slides backwards and is still spinning the same direction in which case it acts like draw.

I wouldn't call that draw since the kissed-back ball has topspin (relative to the shooter). I would call that a kiss-back carom follow shot.

It occurred to me that if you could get an object ball fully rolling it could achieve the same action, so I set up the shot in this video. Jesse Engle is shooting the shot. He is using a little draw and the distance between the object balls to ensure the 2 ball is fully rolling upon contacting the 4. As a result after double kissing backwards it 'draws' off the 3 ball into the 9 for the win. It is hard to control and I doubt it's practical in a game, but this game is made to be fun and it was satisfying to turn a brainstorm into a reality.

That's a good example of a kiss-back kiss follow shot. FYI, I have lots of examples of both kiss-back carom and kiss shots, with both follow and draw, in this video:

• DOUBLE-KISS SHOTS ... Real Game Winners

Here are the pertinent sections:
3. Kiss-Back Carom Shots [2:28]
---- 3-times-the-angle kiss-back system [2:55]
---- double kiss carom examples [3:36]
4. Kiss-Back Kiss Shots [6:24]

Check them out.

Best regards,
Dave

 

[fastone371]

Dr. Dave, this one is for you. Happy Thanksgiving!

When shooting a rolling cue ball into a rail it rebounds with natural roll. When shooting into a double kiss, however, it slides backwards and is still spinning the same direction in which case it acts like draw. It occurred to me that if you could get an object ball fully rolling it could achieve the same action, so I set up the shot in this video. Jesse Engle is shooting the shot. He is using a little draw and the distance between the object balls to ensure the 2 ball is fully rolling upon contacting the 4. As a result after double kissing backwards it 'draws' off the 3 ball into the 9 for the win. It is hard to control and I doubt it's practical in a game, but this game is made to be fun and it was satisfying to turn a brainstorm into a reality.

This is an interesting shot to watch in slow motion frame by frame, you can actually see the draw...... eerrr follow...... eerrr spin take over and change the direction of the 2 ball.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks. Belated Happy Thanksgiving to you and everybody else also!

Actually, under typical conditions, a ball rolling straight into a cushion rebounds with stun (although, roll eventually develops). Here are some demonstrations:

• HSV B.15 – straight-on kick shot rebound losses and spin changes for roll, stun, and draw shots
• NV B.18 – Kick shot cue ball hold shot example with Tom Ross

I wouldn't call that draw since the kissed-back ball has topspin. I would call that a kiss-back carom follow shot.

That's a good example of a kiss-back follow kiss shot. FYI, I have lots of examples of both kiss-back carom and kiss shots, with both follow and draw, in this video:

• DOUBLE-KISS SHOTS ... Real Game Winners

Here are the pertinent sections:
3. Kiss-Back Carom Shots [2:28]
---- 3-times-the-angle kiss-back system [2:55]
---- double kiss carom examples [3:36]
4. Kiss-Back Kiss Shots [6:24]

Check them out.

Best regards,
Dave

Demetrius,

FYI, I've embedded your video as an example of "an OB kiss-back kiss shot with follow action" here:

Kiss-Back Shot Double Kiss resource page

Thanks for posting it,
Dave

 

[Tin Man]

Hey all! Glad you enjoyed the shot.

As for calling it draw, I've always equated draw with back spin, so my working definition was "a ball sliding across the table rotating the opposite direction of natural roll such that it backs up upon impact with another ball". This ball was back spinning off the first kiss. If back spin doesn't mean "spinning backwards" then I'm not sure what back spin means. And generally back spin is applied by using draw, which may be limited to 'striking the cue ball below center with the cue stick'. That is why I felt this was a way to get a 'draw effect' on an object ball.

Anyway, I surrender all linguistics battles. I just like to play pool. I've seen this done with the cue ball but not with the object ball so I thought it would be neat to try.

Jay, yes, Jesse played enough on the big stage to fully grasp how difficult international pool was, the sacrifices it would take to achieve the highest levels, and the lack of reward to the many who come a hair shy. Like so many other of our great players he decided it made more sense to pursue other things in life and keep pool as a hobby. Without going into too much detail I can say he is successfully business for self, enjoys a comfortable life, and still plays a very fine game of pool.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I've never seen that with an object ball. The shot in which the cue ball shows "draw" after a double kiss is a little over 200 years old. It was invented by Captain François Mingaud who invented the leather tip. He published it in a book of fancy shots in 1818. Here is diagram which is available online on Google Books:

The cue ball double kisses off the OB by the pocket pocketing it, bounces back to the ball on the cushion and then draws/follows forward to complete a four-ball carom.