My hunch is that any reputable and experienced installer would/will virtually always recommend Simonis for those that request a premium cloth, unless whatever other cloth they had access to they could make a higher $ profit on than the Simonis.
New cloth suggestions ... ?
- Thread starter pvc lou
- Start date
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I installed new 860HR on my table. I decided to break out the phenolic tipped break cue. I then proceeded to break (I hadn't played at all for 5-10 years) and miscue like hell, hitting the cloth and putting a small tear in the cloth. It wasn't ALL the way through, but it gave me a couple of stray threads. The literal first rack on the table and I did this!
The cloth has held up great for the year it's been installed, but there are a few other micro tears from miscues as I have friends over to play and we don't baby it. It's not enough to effect play, but there are several blemishes on this "toughest" cloth.
I
I use one of those cheap plastic tarps they sell at Walmart or Hardly Worth the Freight. My table is in an unfinished basement so it isn't like I am going to lose style points. Works to keep the dust off just as well as a nice cover.
Tell him to cover the table when he's not playing. (Duh!)Thanks for the info guys.
His means are limited, and he wants to know what options are out there. His English is poor, so he asked me to check in with the experts on here. Another thing is that his table is in his basement workshop...which stays pretty dirty...so expensive cloth might be a waste of money since it's going to get dirty.
I know that Fast Eddies on the south east side of Houston uses/or used Championship cloth...which I have played hundreds of hours on. I think it plays just fine, and lasts up to a few years on tables that get a lot of use....but I'm no expert.
Looking forward to more testimonies.
It's interesting that no one has suggested that one of these Far East cloths might be better than Simonis, regardless of price.
I learned a lesson about price and quality. I had a 2006 BMW X3. That car was great, when everything worked. By the time I had to dump it, when it was 10 years old, I had cataloged 27 things that had gone wrong with it. The last was the second time the transfer case acted up, and the repair would have been about double the book value of the car. In the same time period my wife had a 2006 Honda Accord. The only thing she ever had to do was change the oil, replace the tires, renew the brakes, replace a battery, and put gas in it. That car is still in our family, just running and running and running. It cost less than 1/2 what the BMW cost.
I might try the CPBA cloth. I am much less swayed by reputation of products than I once was. And, as someone previously speculated, there are probably more tables with CPBA cloth than Simonis in this world.
I learned a lesson about price and quality. I had a 2006 BMW X3. That car was great, when everything worked. By the time I had to dump it, when it was 10 years old, I had cataloged 27 things that had gone wrong with it. The last was the second time the transfer case acted up, and the repair would have been about double the book value of the car. In the same time period my wife had a 2006 Honda Accord. The only thing she ever had to do was change the oil, replace the tires, renew the brakes, replace a battery, and put gas in it. That car is still in our family, just running and running and running. It cost less than 1/2 what the BMW cost.
I might try the CPBA cloth. I am much less swayed by reputation of products than I once was. And, as someone previously speculated, there are probably more tables with CPBA cloth than Simonis in this world.
In your example case however, you are comparing Japan to Europe. Japan makes the best things in the whole world, better than Germany, USA, etc. The lower tier worsted cloths are coming from China and Korea I believe. They certainly can make excellent products, but they are no Japan, which is "expected" to make excellent products, no questions asked.
I have been using Andy 988 cloth for two months now on my Diamond Pro. It plays fast and so far I like the cloth.
I had Simonis 860 on the table for 12 years before that, and Simonis on my Olhausen table before that. I believe that Simonis has a slightly finer surface than Andy. I believe the speed difference is very close with the Andy getting slightly faster(I have been told) as it ages. Saving money was not important to me when I made the switch, I was more inline with supporting the folks in Saratoga Wyoming that distribute the cloth. This company has been putting on Pro/am tourneys in my area that have been very fun to go to or watch on free streams.
Did you get 12 years out of the same cut or was it recovered a couple times?
Yes 12 years. My table is in my house and covered when not in use. I maintain it with a good vacuum and it had moderate use. The Simonis faded over the years and played very tough as it aged. There was a half a dozen nicks on the cloth from miscues but no tears. Interesting that on slow roles balls would roll slightly in when shot along the rails. With the Andy cloth this does not happen at all. The cloth rolls very true.
When letting a ball drop off the end rail it rolls about three inches farther on the Andy than it rolled on my Simonis. Of course the Andy is new and the Simonis was old and that may have made a difference.
12 years out of the HR is what separates Simonis from the competition, IMO. There are too many variables regarding speed. As you pointed out, the age of the cloth but also the stretch. The Andy may have been stretched a tad further than the Simonis.
Rex, I respect your opinion, I consider you one of the experts here. But, I must say, as an engineer, that there is no way to know how HR lasts compared to the competition based on the rather terse testimony of one fellow. There's no objective measure. What does "lasts" mean? He could have been in denial about the cloth for a few years before replacing it.
In my view, given similar materials, process, and weight, and weaving specifications, there's no reason to suspect a difference in cloths.
The CPBA Competition cloth is
I can do the same for CPBA Competition soon, I hope, as I just ordered it for my 9' Gold Crown. I found it from a Chinese vendor billiardsupermarket.com, for $120. That's exactly one-third of the price of Simonis 860. I hope they are real and come through!
Update: wool/nylon percentage corrected for CPBA Competition.
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Holy Cow! I ordered the CPBA Competition cloth for a 9' table, tournament blue, with no writing on the rail pieces. I ordered it from billiardsupermarket.com CPBA Pool cloth for 9ft tables (Competition), in China, for $120, plus $6 shipping, on January 4. I just received it! They sent it FedEx International Priority. (I specified the color and no text in my order note.)
I checked and it's the right size, and I got six rail pieces. The rail pieces seem to be cut generously, I think, at 6 x 54 3/4". All rail pieces have a slevage (selvedge for you Brits) edge on one long edge. This is 3/4" wide.
The bed piece has a slevage edge on one long edge. Total width is 60 3/4" and the length is 109". (Measurements were taken without stretching out the cloth.)
I'm thrilled, and surprised, to have received it. The order status on their website went to "on hold" after I ordered it, and it is still in that state.
This will be a learning experience. I can't even tell which side is the up side, which gives you an idea of my experience level. (One side is smoother, so I guess that's the "up" side.)
I have some scraps of the Simonis 860 on my table, and in hands I can't tell the difference in thickness, weight, etc.
Yipee!
I checked and it's the right size, and I got six rail pieces. The rail pieces seem to be cut generously, I think, at 6 x 54 3/4". All rail pieces have a slevage (selvedge for you Brits) edge on one long edge. This is 3/4" wide.
The bed piece has a slevage edge on one long edge. Total width is 60 3/4" and the length is 109". (Measurements were taken without stretching out the cloth.)
I'm thrilled, and surprised, to have received it. The order status on their website went to "on hold" after I ordered it, and it is still in that state.
This will be a learning experience. I can't even tell which side is the up side, which gives you an idea of my experience level. (One side is smoother, so I guess that's the "up" side.)
I have some scraps of the Simonis 860 on my table, and in hands I can't tell the difference in thickness, weight, etc.
Yipee!
For comparison, here are the dimensions of CPBA v. Simonis for a 9' table:
Simonis measurements: Simonis Standard Cloth Cutting Guide
CPBA: measured from actual cloth
Simonis | CPBA | |
| Bed Length | 112" | 109" |
| Bed Width | 60" | 60" |
| Rail Length | 56" | 54 3/4" |
| Rail Width | 6" | 6" |
Simonis measurements: Simonis Standard Cloth Cutting Guide
CPBA: measured from actual cloth