Do you know of players who had such Natural Talent, that they could have been a World Champion?

[ChrisinNC]

I read 5 'Asian', 2 Europe, and one Canadian....

...just saying

Obviously Stu is counting Alex as an Asian. We’ve had this debate before.

 

[sjm]

I read 5 'Asian', 2 Europe, and one Canadian....

...just saying

OK, I'll give you that one.

Alex Pagulayan's nationality has always been a tricky matter Safe bet he's a duel citizen of both Canada and the Philippines. In recent years, Alex has played on Team Canada at the World Cup of Pool. Contrastingly, Mika Immonen has been a US citizen, as well as citizen of Finland, for over 20 years now, but during those years, in which he lived in the United States, he played for Team Europe at the Mosconi and for Team Finland at the World Cup of Pool.

Let's just say we are in a bit of a grey area here.

 

[chipperd]

Mark Tadd could get the cheese as good as anybody. Stayed out of the tournament limelight as much as possible.

 

[9ballscorpion]

This story may not apply to this thread but here it goes anyway. I taught pool to middle school kids for about 4 years. In that time I had thousands of kids that came and went most had no ability to play pool. One day I had a girl show up she told me she had never played. I showed her the basics then started on progressive shot making drills. I was struck by her perfect form after the first time I showed her. I was even more struck by her stroke that was naturally smooth and her natural acceleration through the cue ball. I was further confused by her staying down on each shot. After the first 10 minutes of teaching a basic straight in shot I had her making the ball with the cue ball in the jaws of the corner pocket and the object ball in the center of the table. By the end of the 1 hour I had with her she could make follow and stun shots and what really got me was her ability to draw the heavy cue ball. At the end of the lesson I thought I had someone that I could take as far as she wanted to go. However, it wasn't to be the next day she was expelled from school and I never saw her again. I can still see her face and her natural stroke but can't remember her name.
A year later I had a boy who was not quite as good as this girl I was able to work with him for 2 sessions. I was warned about his arrival in my class. He was a shit talker, hot headed, impulsive, crazy but had a natural eye and a natural stroke. He picked everything up naturally that would take most everyone else months to get to. Anyway he was expelled also, drugs, fighting, shit talking you name it he just couldn't maintain the handle. I think of both of these kids occasionally and wonder what could have been but maybe that's crazy talking I don't know.

I love this post. Thanks for sharing the story. Very interesting. Hopefully the 2 kids continued to play, even though having great natural ability does not mean that they would have really loved the game, and had the desire to keep playing long term.

 

[9ballscorpion]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1992-07-08-1992190033-story,amp.html

So, does anyone know how he did that year in Kansas City, at the Nationals, after beating Coltrain to qualify?

Great story.

 

[9ballscorpion]

Wow, do you have any idea how hard it is to win a World 9-ball Championship? Future BCA Hall of Famer SVB has never one won. In the straight pool era, BCA Hall of Famer Jim Rempe never won a World Straight Pool Championship. Even some of the all time greats failed to get over the finish line in world championship events. Yup, it's that difficult!

Yes, we've seen the occasional cinderella stories, like Darryl Peach in the 9-ball era and Larry Lisciotti in the straight pool era, but winning a world championship typically requires knocking off a few current and future hall of famers in the single elimination rounds. Darryl Peach beat a who's who in nine ball (including Bustamante in the semis) when he won, and Larry Lisciotti somehow double dipped Steve Mizerak in 1976 to win from the losers bracket.

I will admit I'm not familiar with Jimmy Matz, but I don't think most of the players mentioned to this point showed enough form to be deemed capable of a world championship. That said, I'm sure some posters watched these players more than I did. Keith Macready, however, clearly had enough game to be deemed capable. I've often been told that the late Chan Whitt, another player I never got to watch, also had enough game to eventually be counted among the game's true greats.

It might be really silly to say, but I really feel bad for SVB, because he came so close 2 years in a row, to winning the World 9 ball championship. I believe that 1st year, Ko Pin-yi got a little lucky, and got a few good rolls on him, and Shane barely lost, like 11 to 13(?), iirc. Then Albin beat him in the finals the next year. I still see Shane as a world champion though. He has won just about everything there has been to win, in pool, other then that event, that he came so close to winning 2 years in a row.

 

[Welder84]

So, does anyone know how he did that year in Kansas City, at the Nationals, after beating Coltrain to qualify?

Great story.

I do not remember. Before he was 20 he left full time pool and started over. He is still around and under the radar, but not the force he was.
The Black Boar cue he had in the article was given to him as sponsorship.

 

[9ballscorpion]

Here's my input, albeit non pool related.

I have been an athlete since my youth. I train amateur and professional athletes to the highest level, included several world championships. One of my students was a gym terror. He would routinely dust off many high ranking guys when they came to the gym. But get him in a professional competition setting and his nerves would be totally rattled and he'd fall apart.

So in many areas, there are people who may have all the physical skills needed to be at the top, but may not have the mental/psychological equipment to handle the pressure. It may be easier for some to feel the alcohol or drugs, etc. stopped them from reaching the top, when in fact it may just be the cover.

That came to mind too. Players who were amazing at doing drills, and just playing for fun, or in low pressure situations, but could not handle the mental part of high pressure situations.

 

[9ballscorpion]

Doing drills is like practicing the same putt from the same spot everytime.

No, look at Darren Appleton for example, and look at the drills he does. Some of them are so advanced, that top players would have a very hard time getting through them. Here is one for example, but this one is probably easy compared to some of the more advanced ones he has shown himself doing.

Darren Appleton One pocket drill 1-11 then 1-10. - YouTube

My point is that with drills, you can always create new ones, or make them more difficult to to.

There is one that he does, where he has like 30 balls on the table, and he pockets all of them without touching any other balls. It is one of the most amazing drills I ever seen.

 

[9ballscorpion]

Hi SJM,
What is the difference between winning the U.S open and a World title? I really do not know the difference (since the best players from all over the world play in the U.S open). Thanks

I read that in the World Championships, players have to go through a qualifier 1st, and then only the top 32(?) make it into the final tournament, which is all Single Elimination, compared to double elimination with the US Open.

The Competition might be tougher in the World Championships too.

 

[sjm]

It might be really silly to say, but I really feel bad for SVB, because he came so close 2 years in a row, to winning the World 9 ball championship. I believe that 1st year, Ko Pin-yi got a little lucky, and got a few good rolls on him, and Shane barely lost, like 11 to 13(?), iirc. Then Albin beat him in the finals the next year. I still see Shane as a world champion though. He has won just about everything there has been to win, in pool, other then that event, that he came so close to winning 2 years in a row.

You may see him as a world champion, but he isn't one. Your statement that he was won virtually everything else there is to win in the sport is also in error. In the last fifteen years or so, corresponding to SVB's career, the four biggest events of the year, and hardest to win, on the pool calendar have surely been a) the WPA World 9ball championship, b) the China Open 9-ball, c) the All-Japan Championships 9-ball, and d) the US Open 9-ball, and SVB has played in virtually all of them most years. SVB has won only the US Open. By comparison, Josh Filler had won three of these by the age of 20.

Shane is an all-time great, a living legend, and a future hall of famer, but let's not rewrite history. His game hasn't traveled well, which is why he hasn't won more of the WPA major titles. Finally, Ko Pin Yi outplayed Shane when they met in the final of the World Championship. I saw the entire match.

Where we agree is that we both feel bad for him, but more than anything, the point here is that winning a WPA World 9-ball Championship is really difficult and even some of the all-time greats have not managed it.

 

[9ballscorpion]

In particular, I'd say that the Matchroom version of the US Open which began in 2019, is the first one that has brought out most of the top Asian players. From 1990-2018, the US Open had a significantly weaker field than the World 9-ball Championships. It also often had a field weaker than those found at either the China Open or the the All-Japan Championships. In recent years, SVB aside, not many Americans have ever been counted in the world's top twenty players by WPA ranking, and in the last decade, very few American players have managed a top 10 in a World 9-ball Championship. SVB, Deuel and Dechaine are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head that did so, although I'm probably forgetting someone. No American has won the WPA World 9-ball Championship since 2002, when Strickland snapped it off.

The US Open 9-ball was always tough to win, but it has reached a completely different level. Now, 256 players play double elimination until there are sixteen left and then those sixteen vie for the title in single elimination and for the first prize of $50,000. In 2019, the first edition, this brought out the stars of Asia in droves. When the smoke had cleared, Asia had six of the eight quarterfinalists (Wu Jiaqing, YL Chang, Jeff DeLuna, Wang Can, Alex Pagulayan, Liu Haitao) and Europe had the other two (Josh Filler, Francisco Sanchez Ruiz),. Despite the absence of both Zheng and Raga, two of the world's ten best players by my reckoning, Asia had eleven of the last sixteen, Europe had just four of them, and SVB was the lone American to reach the single elimination stage of the event.. Josh Filler would ultimately prevail in the final, knocking off Wu Jiaqing.

As long as things continue to stay on this course at the US Open, I believe it will be just as difficult to win a US Open 9-ball event as a WPA World 9-ball Championship. Matchroom has brought the US Open 9-ball event to a completely new level, and we the fans are the true winners.

Wow, looks like the US Open is probably now the toughest pool tournament in the world to win. It is so nice to see Matchroom bring it to their menu of events.

 

[9ballscorpion]

You may see him as a world champion, but he isn't one. Your statement that he was won virtually everything else there is to win in the sport is also in error. In the last fifteen years or so, corresponding to SVB's career, the four biggest events of the year, and hardest to win, on the pool calendar have surely been a) the WPA World 9ball championship, b) the China Open 9-ball, c) the All-Japan Championships 9-ball, and d) the US Open 9-ball, and SVB has played in virtually all of them most years. SVB has won only the US Open. By comparison, Josh Filler had won three of these by the age of 20.

Shane is an all-time great, a living legend, and a future hall of famer, but let's not rewrite history. His game hasn't traveled well, which is why he hasn't won more of the WPA major titles. Finally, Ko Pin Yi outplayed Shane when they met in the final of the World Championship. I saw the entire match.

Where we agree is that we both feel bad for him, but more than anything, the point here is that winning a WPA World 9-ball Championship is really difficult and even some of the all-time greats have not managed it.

Shane got really close though, within 2 games, against Ko. It could have go either way, right? Also, he was able to get the the Final of the World 9 ball 2 years in a row. I assume that not many other players have done that. Carlo Biado won it one year, and then lost to Filler the next year, right? So, he is the only other player I know of that has gotten to the Final of the World 9 ball 2 years in a row. Has Filler done that? He won it, but how did he do in later years? I just think it is amazing that though Shane did not win it, he did make it to the Finals 2 years in a row, and he got within 2 games of winning, against Ko. I thought I remember Ko getting a few good rolls, and getting a little lucky there at the end.

Anyways, in his younger years, Shane was a Monster player. Back when he won the US Open like 3 years years in a row. Maybe he just got bored, and kind of lost interest over the years, and has not had the same killer instinct as he did 10-15 years ago.

 

[9ballscorpion]

Obviously Stu is counting Alex as an Asian. We’ve had this debate before.

He moved to Canada, at a very young age, right? Probably long before he even picked up a pool cue.

 

[9ballscorpion]

I do not remember. Before he was 20 he left full time pool and started over. He is still around and under the radar, but not the force he was.
The Black Boar cue he had in the article was given to him as sponsorship.

I wonder if there is any videos out there to see, of him playing.

 

[sjm]

Shane got really close though, within 2 games, against Ko. It could have go either way, right? Also, he was able to get the the Final of the World 9 ball 2 years in a row. I assume that not many other players have done that. Carlo Biado won it one year, and then lost to Filler the next year, right? So, he is the only other player I know of that has gotten to the Final of the World 9 ball 2 years in a row. Has Filler done that? He won it, but how did he do in later years? I just think it is amazing that though Shane did not win it, he did make it to the Finals 2 years in a row, and he got within 2 games of winning, against Ko. I thought I remember Ko getting a few good rolls, and getting a little lucky there at the end.

Anyways, in his younger years, Shane was a Monster player. Back when he won the US Open like 3 years years in a row. Maybe he just got bored, and kind of lost interest over the years, and has not had the same killer instinct as he did 10-15 years ago.

After Josh Filler won the gold at the China Open in 2017 and was Mosconi Cup MVP in 2017 with a 5-0 record, he won the gold at the WPA World 9-ball championship in 2018, the gold at the 2019 US Open 9-ball and the silver at the 2019 World 10-ball Championship. I'd call this a better stretch of pool than anyone has put together in the last twenty five years, and he accomplished all of it by the age of twenty.

By the way, Shane is still a monster player, capable of beating anyone at anytime, and still capable of snapping off something major, but several of the most elite have caught up with him, and two of them (JL Chang, Josh Filler) have, in my opinion, passed him. European pool and Asian pool have advanced far more impressively than American pool in recent times, and the results in the major championships have confirmed it over and over.

 

[sjm]

Wow, looks like the US Open is probably now the toughest pool tournament in the world to win. It is so nice to see Matchroom bring it to their menu of events.

There's no reason to think the US Open will catch the WPA World Championship in field quality, although it will come close. More likely is that the US Open 9-ball will be on a par with the China Open 9-ball, Asia's premier event. These will be the three most coveted titles in the game in the immediate future, and they will be awfully difficult to win. These are three events I don't want to miss. You need to take into account that Matchroom has now taken over the WPA World 9-ball event, and perhaps they will raise its profile, just as they did with the US Open. However it plays out, it should make for some great pool. Props also to the International 9-ball, which is quickly building itself into a truly premier event.

 

[jay helfert]

After Josh Filler won the gold at the China Open in 2017 and was Mosconi Cup MVP in 2017 with a 5-0 record, he won the gold at the WPA World 9-ball championship in 2018, the gold at the 2019 US Open 9-ball and the silver at the 2019 World 10-ball Championship. I'd call this a better stretch of pool than anyone has put together in the last twenty five years, and he accomplished all of it by the age of twenty.

By the way, Shane is still a monster player, capable of beating anyone at anytime, and still capable of snapping off something major, but several of the most elite have caught up with him, and two of them (JL Chang, Josh Filler) have, in my opinion, passed him. European pool and Asian pool have advanced far more impressively than American pool in recent times, and the results in the major championships have confirmed it over and over.

Shane won the World Pool Masters twice, beating elite fields both times!

 

[SHORTY WRIGHT]

Josh Brothers from Delaware was truly unique and could of been a world champion ... He had God given talents ... He beat world champion Mike Siegel years ago (on YouTube) ...

 

[sjm]

Shane won the World Pool Masters twice, beating elite fields both times!

Yes, Shane also won the World Cup of Pool in 2008 with Rodney Morris as his partner. Both events are invitationals with small fields, but they are quality overseas wins. Thanks for pointing it out, Jay.