Pocket More Thin Cut Shots

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In this circumstance I generally aim either thick or thin and use the appropriate CB squirt to make the cut.

Since making an effort to hold strong focus on OB last. I find I can make these ultra thin cuts without the aid of squirt.
I like to start on the edge to edge line then shift the cue to center before adjusting the cue line.
While I can slip my door key in the lock with being on the exact line, the precision needed to snick the object ball sideways is difficult without looking down that line, at some point.
It needs to be a starting reference.
Assuming a normal angle range from zero through ~90°, the fractional overlap method takes you through about 49 of those degrees from zero to a quarter ball.
That leaves about 40° of angles to be found across the remaining quarter ball receding surface.
The topic here is likely addressing shots within the thinest 10° of contacts.
Speed is a factor because on many shots, without it, the ball might not reach the target.
At high speed the throw factor of draw or follow are less than a degree.
A skidding ball is a variable to avoid whenever possible.
Using small amounts of english and adjusting for squirt should not be part of the calculations.
Squirt might be negligible, but Dr Dave showed that very small amounts of english can have more throw than expected.
Cutting a ball thin with a small amount of outside english helps sharpen the angle and avoids extra throw if stun is needed.
https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/june07.pdf
I’ve taken an excerpt from the linked document and highlighted relevant physics effects for the topic here.
47FE6FFF-0F56-4B3B-BAA8-7F01644E1DAF.jpeg
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Using small amounts of english and adjusting for squirt should not be part of the calculations.
Except squirt is a reality when applying english, so if you have a strong handle on the amount of squirt you can expect, then using it to control your aim is a mere babystep away from adjusting aim because of it. Hopefully that makes sense...lol

Once again, there are presumed 'best practices' when dealing with ultra thin cuts. I won't claim my method of using squirt is one of them. Only that it's the way usually handle it, and I'll add that I happen to be pretty darn successful with it. Everyone else's mileage may vary.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Cool diagram. On the contact diagram, any point on the equator will supply a tangent that is very easy to dupe on the cueball. Further the points locate lines that extend through the center of the ball into infinity. That, in and of itself, is plenty to see a shot with but there's more relevant info just for the seeing.

In bold....experience makes it easy. For those with less experience, it's not easy.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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btw. i tested your method BC21 on online game and it is working good at least on carom games. Made run of 61 on straight rail and did shoot some super thin shots when needed with this. need to try it real too..

On a real table it is a bit more challenging. There's a reason you don't see pro players whizzing in 70 to 90 degree cut shots. They don't want to lose. Lol.

Super thin cuts are low percentage shots for everyone. If anyone thinks their pocketing percentage on super thin cuts is 80% or better, they are likely overestimating their ability. Most of us simply don't shoot enough super thin shots to become that proficient with them. 50% is good. That's why even the best players in the world will play a safety rather than shoot a super thin cut. Sometimes there are no other options other than going for the shot, but that's rare.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
50% is good. That's why even the best players in the world will play a safety rather than shoot a super thin cut.
This ^^^

The four letter word that is "safety". What consitutes 'difficult' is completely subjective to the given player. However I'd wager a decent % of the "difficult" shots players hope a system will gain them proficiency in, are situations better suited to safe play.
Sometimes there are no other options other than going for the shot, but that's rare.
Very rare... Maybe if we're speaking in terms of >750 players, a safe akin to long distance and rail to rail positioning may not be the best choice. ...but even pros don't like sticking their necks out.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Silver Member
Trying to understand this. Do you mean because the overlap is twice as wide as the edge-to-contact point distance?

pj
chgo

For simple 1/8 ball increments, the actual aiming references on the ob for connecting the dots (cb contact point to ob contact point) are closer together when compared to fractional or ghostball references.

For me, seeing or estimating a touch thinner or thicker within a 7mm gap is easier than seeing or estimating a touch thinner or thicker within a 3.5mm gap. That's what the diagram shows.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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The topic is connecting the dots. They simply connect.

Lol. Actually, the topic is about how difficult it is to accurately connect the dots or accurately determine the doubled distance or parallel shift from an estimated dot.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lol. Actually, the topic is about how difficult it is to accurately connect the dots or accurately determine the doubled distance or parallel shift from an estimated dot.
Not difficult at all. You need to find the dots first. Finding the parallel stick line is just a simple drafting trick done with the stick or even your bare hands in 3D space. But the topic of the post you quoted IS connecting the dots.
I wish I had the time to perfect the details but right now, no rooms, a few single table bars - quality time ain't gonna happen. My go to table is an 8 ft global with their standard 4 1/8", 4 1/4" pockets so there's some workout available but not the hours on end I long for.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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BC21 said:
Referencing the exact contact point on the ob requires twice the visual precision as referencing the ghostball or the fractional overlap using spatial skills.

Trying to understand this. Do you mean because the overlap is twice as wide as the edge-to-contact point distance?

pj
chgo

It's a bit odd to imagine I guess, but when using the 2.25" diameter/width of the ball as it is viewed, aiming 1mm left or right of an aiming reference on that 2.25" line ends up being 0.5mm on the actual fat surface of the ball (its circumference or equator), which is where the contact points are located. And each 0.5mm on the equator is a 1° change in shot angle.

So when using contact points one has to be able to work in 0.5mm increments instead of 1mm increments to create the same cut angle. That means you have to be twice as accurate when using contact points. As the cut angle gets larger the numbers change a little bit, but for any shot thicker than about a 3/8 overlap, a 1mm fractional aim adjustment is about 1°, and that same 1° adjustment would only be 0.5mm if using contact points.

Here's the nuts of it.... If you're off by 1mm on the contact point, the shot will be 2° off. If you're off by 1mm on a fractional aim point the shot will be 1° off.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On a real table it is a bit more challenging. There's a reason you don't see pro players whizzing in 70 to 90 degree cut shots. They don't want to lose. Lol.

Super thin cuts are low percentage shots for everyone. If anyone thinks their pocketing percentage on super thin cuts is 80% or better, they are likely overestimating their ability. Most of us simply don't shoot enough super thin shots to become that proficient with them. 50% is good. That's why even the best players in the world will play a safety rather than shoot a super thin cut. Sometimes there are no other options other than going for the shot, but that's rare.
actually there is some pro level carom players in game and all say thin cuts are more difficult to shoot in game than real. And I played that game a lot... and agree with them. Thin cuts there are so deceive because not true 3d, just illusion of it. I am always open minded to try some new ideas that can work. I go what works in aiming. No matter what method it is.. :)
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's a bit odd to imagine I guess, but when using the 2.25" diameter/width of the ball as it is viewed, aiming 1mm left or right of an aiming reference on that 2.25" line ends up being 0.5mm on the actual fat surface of the ball (its circumference or equator), which is where the contact points are located. And each 0.5mm on the equator is a 1° change in shot angle.

So when using contact points one has to be able to work in 0.5mm increments instead of 1mm increments to create the same cut angle. That means you have to be twice as accurate when using contact points. As the cut angle gets larger the numbers change a little bit, but for any shot thicker than about a 3/8 overlap, a 1mm fractional aim adjustment is about 1°, and that same 1° adjustment would only be 0.5mm if using contact points.

Here's the nuts of it.... If you're off by 1mm on the contact point, the shot will be 2° off. If you're off by 1mm on a fractional aim point the shot will be 1° off.
You're not keying in to mill the balls. You just want to identify the shot. Contact Points present an irrefuteable representation of any shot UPON which one can learn pool.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's a bit odd to imagine I guess, but when using the 2.25" diameter/width of the ball as it is viewed, aiming 1mm left or right of an aiming reference on that 2.25" line ends up being 0.5mm on the actual fat surface of the ball (its circumference or equator), which is where the contact points are located. And each 0.5mm on the equator is a 1° change in shot angle.

So when using contact points one has to be able to work in 0.5mm increments instead of 1mm increments to create the same cut angle. That means you have to be twice as accurate when using contact points. As the cut angle gets larger the numbers change a little bit, but for any shot thicker than about a 3/8 overlap, a 1mm fractional aim adjustment is about 1°, and that same 1° adjustment would only be 0.5mm if using contact points.

Here's the nuts of it.... If you're off by 1mm on the contact point, the shot will be 2° off. If you're off by 1mm on a fractional aim point the shot will be 1° off.
Let’s take a look at fractional aiming.
The ball is just a bit over 57mm in width
A quarter ball hit is an eighth of that or just over 7 mm wide, just over 49°.
The last quarter ball, roughly 7.15 mm covers the remaining ~40° of angles.
Rough math shows that each lateral mm encompasses an average of 5-6° of angles.
The last mm rates to include closer to 10°+ based on the receding surface dynamics.

This reminds me of a diagram from Freddy the Beard.
He reminded us that the ball to ball contact involved a flattening of both surfaces at impact.
Using carbon paper on the equator he measured the flattening using various speeds.
Higher speeds equaled more flattening.
The flattened area we know as the tangent line.
Just something to consider.

By directing the reference line with my cue line using a convergent version of applying small amounts of side, in this case a midpoint convergence, I can bring the impact area dynamic back to the cue ball visually.
The pivot from center exactly represents the two fold adjustment that occurs with contact points.

To help explain I’m going to start with a just miss line.
I can set my vision line for the outside edges to be aligned about a mm apart then shift to center ball.
That line would miss the ball.
Taking the midpoint of that line and pivoting the cue butt to the outside, at a pivot of a mm at the core center of the cb. the cue line now contacts edge to edge.
The lateral movement at one end is echoed at the other.
The mm pivot shift of the butt away from the reference line brings the cue line a mm closer at the other.
On shots such as the one presented here instead of aiming to miss I aim to overcut the ball by about a half ball.
I then pivot from the midpoint by between a mm to a mm and a half as seen from the cb center extended from the tip contact point past the core center to the midpoint.
The overcut starting reference line allows for minimal outside english to be used and the aim line adjusted for distance in one single process.
This combination allows us to use all of the Dr Dave research insights at the table constructively.
Having an echo location of the contact position right under our noses at the cb center, adds a 3D element representation.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
.... If you're off by 1mm on the contact point, the shot will be 2° off. If you're off by 1mm on a fractional aim point the shot will be 1° off.
I think you're oversimplifying the comparison. The contact point is never the "aim point".

pj
chgo
 
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sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On a real table it is a bit more challenging. There's a reason you don't see pro players whizzing in 70 to 90 degree cut shots. They don't want to lose. Lol.

Super thin cuts are low percentage shots for everyone. If anyone thinks their pocketing percentage on super thin cuts is 80% or better, they are likely overestimating their ability. Most of us simply don't shoot enough super thin shots to become that proficient with them. 50% is good. That's why even the best players in the world will play a safety rather than shoot a super thin cut. Sometimes there are no other options other than going for the shot, but that's rare.
I feel attacked. :)

I definitely go for them too much. I know it costs me games but I love shooting them.

I aim similar to what you describe with the edge of the CB. I start aiming CP to CP and then parallel shift usually. I will often shoot these with my eye over the CP to CP line instead of the cue stick line.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Silver Member
Let’s take a look at fractional aiming.
The ball is just a bit over 57mm in width
A quarter ball hit is an eighth of that or just over 7 mm wide, just over 49°.

No. A quarter ball hit is 1/4 of 57.15mm, which is 14.29mm. It is a 48.6° cut angle.

The last quarter ball, roughly 7.15 mm covers the remaining ~40° of angles.
Rough math shows that each lateral mm encompasses an average of 5-6° of angles.
The last mm rates to include closer to 10°+ based on the receding surface dynamics.

No. The last 14.29mm, not 7.15mm, covers the remaining 40° worth of angles.

But seriously, we can discount the last 10° or or so. Shooting 80° or thinner cuts is rare. And when it does happen the ob is usually close to the pocket where there's a large margin for error.

Anyway, between a 1/4 ball hit (48.6°) and a 1/8 ball hit (61.0°) there are 12.4° of angles. Those angles are spread over a 7.15mm portion of the diameter of the ob. But they are not spread equally, because of the rededing suface dynamics that you mentioned. The first few 1mm increments thinner from the quarter reference end up being 1.5° changes in the shot angle. About halfway between the 7.15mm gao every 1mm is about 1.7° worth of angles. As the reference gets closer to the 1/8, every mm is about a 2° change in shot angle.

None of this really matters though, as we are talking about shots that might come up 1 out of 20 or 30 times or less. I played a 9ball tournament today and maybe shot 2 shots that were thinner than a quarter ball hit, out of 30+ racks. If a player is continually having to cut 1/8 ball shots or thinner, I believe their position play needs more work than their aiming. Lol
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've had many an impossibly thin cut go in by way of practicing 4 rail billiards on the pool table. Reason being, if the object ball is even an inch off the cushion, you are getting into the "big pocket" zone. You might have 5 degrees (arbitrary) error on what otherwise would be an 85 degree cut. As the ball gets further out, you have a bigger aperture even if you lose the funnel effect.
HENCE:
Tangent aiming. As long as you locate the pocket in the shot scheme, it's completely reliable.
 
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