Yes, that's what I'm saying.
I'm not sure I agree the rule should change - just pointing out the inconsistency.
pj
chgo
8 ball rule question
- Thread starter livemusic
- Start date
pj
chgo
It makes more sense to me the way it is.
In a call shot 8ball game, if you're solids, it's a foul to hit one of your opponent's striped balls first. But if the table is still open you can hit any ball first (except for the 8). It doesn't matter if you're playing a safety or calling a specific ball into a pocket for the purpose of securing that group of balls. Hitting any ball first is logically a legal shot since all the balls are legal to hit.
It wouldn't make sense, for instance, if the table is open (neither player is stripes or solids), to require a player to make contact with one particular suited ball or another first in order to legally pocket a ball.
If I'm not solids or stripes, and my opponent calls a solid and shoots a stripe-solid combination to do it, where is the foul or illegal hit? The first ball was not owned by either player until after the called ball dropped into a called pocket.
So as long as the balls are open, it makes perfect sense that any ball can be used to pocket any called shot. After that, the player has secured that group and the other group is now "owned" by the opponent and can no longer be used in the same manner as when all the balls were open for both players.
8ball is nothing like snooker. The table is always open in snooker, meaning no player has a set group/suit of balls after a certain color has been legally pocketed. Both players own all the reds and all the colors.
In 8ball, unless its slop 8ball, no player owns any group of balls until a called shot determines which group of balls they've secured. And that called shot can logically involve striking any group (solid or stripe) first if neither group has been secured by either player.
Where is the inconsistency?
Yes, but that doesn't make the rule logical. I think calling a ball and pocket should equal designating that suit "on" for that shot. But I've lived with the current rule for this long - I can take a few more decades until everybody else comes to their senses.
pj
chgo
I can see the inconsistency. I like that they make the allowance for us to use a different suit on the first shot, so I'm not going to lobby for any change.Yes, but that doesn't make the rule logical. I think calling a ball and pocket should equal designating that suit "on" for that shot. But I've lived with the current rule for this long - I can take a few more decades until everybody else comes to their senses.
pj
chgo
I can see the inconsistency. I like that they make the allowance for us to use a different suit on the first shot, so I'm not going to lobby for any change.
But there is no inconsistency. The BCA rule is: The first ball contacted by the cue ball on each shot must belong to the shooter’s group, except when the table is open.
This is because when the table is open, no shooter has a specific group of balls, so logically there's no way to hit one of your balls first, since you haven't secured a particular group yet.
And that's why it makes perfect sense to be able to make contact with any ball in order to call a specific ball, which then, if pocketed, secures the group of your choice.
He's not arguing the rule itself. It's the spirit of the rule he disagrees with.
"Except when the table is open" is explicitly an exception to (i.e., inconsistent with) the general rule.
I might (eventually) agree it's an OK rule, but it will still be inconsistent with the general rule.
pj
chgo
well back 50 or 60 years primarily straight pool (14-1) was the only game played in pool halls........... and 9 ball was for gambling,,,,,,,,, 8 ball was usually only played in bars,,,,,,,,,, ever bar had different rules.............. they posted them on the wall by the pool table.................... my point is............................. STOP BITCHING, COMPLAINING, AND DISECTING THE RULES................. AND JUST PLAY BY THEM
I always had a knack for knowing when a bar fight was imminent....position was everything.
Jeff Livingston
Lol...."Except when the table is open" is a clarification so that people understand the intent of the rule. I mean, there is absolutely no way for a player to hit one of his balls first if he has not yet pocketed a called shot that secures one group or the other. Until that happens, any ball is comsidered legal to hit first in order to pocket a called ball of any suit.
Anyhow, called shot 8ball has been like this for quite a few years now. Maybe someday you'll come around.
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Sure there is - simply define "his balls" to include the one he calls on an open table.
I still don't know for sure my way is better on balance - I just like the consistency of it.
pj
chgo
Ok. Using your idea of consistency, let's say you break and pocket a solid, but decide you want stripes, and so you call a stripe in the side, and shoot for an easy 10-12 combo for your first shot. But you miscue and hit a solid ball first. Wouldn't that be a foul and ball in hand for me, considering that you didn't hit a stripe first?
That would be a very weird way to play immediately following the break, since neither one of us have secured a particular group of balls yet.
We're really just talking about the first shot after the break before any player pockets a ball and then owns that group of balls. It could be several shots if the breaker has no shot and decides to play a safety.
I believe how the BCA rule is written, and how the called pocket game is played, makes perfect sense compared to any other alternative or any other rule regarding an open table.
Sure, just like any other time. Why should it be different?
Unfamiliar, for sure.
pj
chgo
Everyone here understands the rule. Some find it odd considering other factors. It's fine if you don't. No biggie.
It's different because it's still an open table, lol. Despite the intention to pocket a ball from one group or the other, neither player officially secures a group until a called shot is made. That's what makes it different than any other time in the game, hence the stipulation in the rule about contacting a ball of your group first, "except when the table is open".
A few games have some type of special rule or exception to the standard shot rules immediately after the break. In 9 ball there's a push out option. In 1-pocket many players have adopted re-breaking whenever a ball is pocketed on the break. With 8ball it's considered open table with no designation of group requirements until a ball is called and pocketed.
I like all of these except for the 1-pocket re-break. It only makes sense if you're racking for yourself.
Here's a good question... For those who don't like the call shot 8ball rules, how much 8ball do you really play? Just curious.
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I figured everyone understands the rule. But I don't think everyone understands why the rule is what it is. Lol.
People think differently about the "why". I admire your persistence. Between this topic and the "play safe with a four ball runout", you certainly do stick to your guns! <---Genuine compliment.
Lol..... yeah...I realize I took that one too far. Anyway, thanks.
And for the record, I like it when someone convinces me that my guns are shooting blanks or happen to be aimed poorly. Pushing or challenging a topic can often lead to interesting and creative back and forths. There is benefit in seeing how others think, what they believe, and how they defend those beliefs.