Yet another CTE thread (sigh)

The original comment made it hard to understand that. I started this way from Hal’s instructions and made balls from all over the place. Maybe you should have tried it out first before throwing it away
I was interested enough to connect with Hal and be on the phone with him while at the table. I recall he had me draw the ob with three vertical lines. I could tell it was something I had no interest in right away. I kept an open mind about it and got interested about all the discussion on AZ with Stan. My interest shifted from CTE to the cult-like devotion acolytes demonstrated whenever one of Stan's commandments was questioned. It's a topic that touches a lot of bases even now.
 
Only 2 reasons (within your control) that you miss shots… mis-stroke or mis-aim. Most people aim better than the think they do, so let’s assume, at an SL4 it’s a stroke issue. That sounds simple, huh? Not so simple. To have a good stroke you have to have a good foundation, a good stance, grip, proper stroking action, etc. So, I’d suggest you work on your foundation and build the best possible stroke you can and the rest will follow.
 
Agreed. Honestly, my eyes glaze over when people start discussing overlaps or equal opposite and posting triangle diagrams of some obscure aiming method that might work. It's just boring. I find CTE psychology far more interesting. Except sometimes when I don't...
What I find interesting and positive is that people love pool enough to explore all the different ways to approach the fundamental task of sending a ball into another ball accurately and repeatedly for as long as they can without a misjudgement. I have never understood the bullying mentality of browbeating students of certain methods because those students don't have the diagramming skills or the math background or even the desire to argue about the connections between human perceptions and the physics of pool at academic levels.

Way back in the RSB days I will admit that I thought aiming was as simple as using ghost ball + brute force practice. Not that I dismissed any other methods of aiming that I saw mentioned here and there but I thought that for me at least aiming wasn't a problem. Aiming in pool has traditionally been treated quite lightly in instructional media and often, in my opinion, somewhat wrong or incomplete advice was often given.

But that aside I don't understand the mocking and the vitriol that people, who often themselves are not scientists or mathematicians, heap on those who register their delight with this or that, but in particular those developed/discovered/promoted by Hal Houle, method of aiming. Why do I have such an deep deep deep hatred for a few people on this forum? Because of how they bullied me on this subject when I reported my experience with Hal Houle and they called me "another indoctrinated cult member" when I couldn't answer the "how does this work" questions they were peppering me with. Questions that they used to bully many others before me as I found out.

The psychology that drives those who are learning CTE is simple. Humans like for things to work. They like to try out different methods when things are not working to their satisfaction. Humans also like to share their experiences, especially good ones. Storytelling is how knowledge was passed from generation to generation since we learned to communicate with each other. It is what separates us from the other animals on this planet. That knowledge and the subsequent invention of storage mediums to preserve knowledge in a codified fashion made it so that humans could acquire knowledge by other means than direct verbal communication from the source. We are a curious primate with big brains and we seek solutions using tools and methods of our own invention. All of us are makers and users on various levels. Makers, especially the really passionate ones, are explorers. They take time out of their lives to create solutions that benefit more than just themselves and their immediate tasks. They share what they have they have created for the users to use. They also share for the other makers to build on what they created and perhaps create even better solutions. So we are driven by our innate curiosity to try offered solutions.

And I agree that this leads to many "solutions" that are not effective but which are marketed as such. Holistic "medicine" for example. I agree that our curious nature and our basic trust in fellow humans leads to a certain amount of gullibility even for those who think themselves to immune to such bogus solutions. There are many people who are giants in their field who believe wacky things in other areas of life. I also agree that there are many people who take on the role of skeptic and in that role they ask hard questions of those making claims of efficacy that don't comport with known science or facts. These people serve a good role in society to act as somewhat of a check against the scammers who prey on our trust and gullibility.

What I don't understand is when we have aiming methods presented which have been discovered/created to help with a real-world physical task that is not life-threatening and really not wallet-draining. I mean even when people charge for their "aiming system knowledge" in the form of books, dvds, and lessons we aren't talking about amounts that put people on the verge of bankruptcy. Joey called himself a "former aiming system junky". The word junky implies an uncontrolled addiction that degrades the quality of life. He sees those who teach any form of aiming that he doesn't approve of as "pushers/dealers" akin to drug dealers. Others have labeled those promoting aiming systems as snake-oil salesmen, as cult leaders, as thieves and con-artists. Those same people have labeled aiming system users, particularly those who use Hal's methods, as religious zealots, as indoctrinated and ignorant, as stupid and dumb and similarly insulting labels. That is unconscionable to me and has been frustrating, hurtful, and hugely wasteful for both sides. And yes I understand that for there to be a fight that there has to be more than one combatant. I am fully aware that the vitriol has become two-sided and that a lot of really hateful things have been said about those on here who have been engaged in using those labels across this and many other forums. What I don't understand is WHY it had to be this way.

Dr. Dave published a video called center table paths. That video contained a method of fairly accurately predicting the path through the center area of the table using a simple technique of aiming/executing so that the cueball goes into the rail at about 45 degrees. This takes the cueball safely through the center area and greatly reduces the chance of scratching. It is actually a really really useful method for position play. I am certain that there is a math equation that factually describes the action in terms of movement within a perfect rectangle. But no one needs the math to see it working and to duplicate it. Imagine how I would feel if I shared this and said I tried it and it works great and someone said well good for you, tell us WHY it works and I said I don't know and they said well you're just indoctrinated and "making it work" through your subconscious. How could I not take a defensive position there?

On the pool table, unlike when someone is very ill, the results are not life and death and they are for entertainment purposes. So when something doesn't provide satisfactory results then it is evident quickly. And that doesn't mean that a particular method doesn't work. I could mean that the application of the method is flawed. Both sides need to recognize that when it comes to aiming all we have is anecdotal stories from people who are using whatever method they are sharing their experience with. And when that is all you have you can't say that something works or doesn't work with the type of confidence that comes from doing actual controlled testing. And if no skeptics are willing to participate in the design and execution of such tests then what's the point of even making claims that a method can't work or doesn't work and those who say it does are just indoctrinated ignorant bumpkins? Because let's be honest here and admit that any such testing done by a proponent of such a method is going to be dismissed for bias. And the same goes the other direction, any testing by skeptics that purports to show "doesn't work" is going to be dismissed for bias. So really the only way to find common ground outside of both sides being involved in the creation and execution of the testing is for both sides to simply say, we don't agree and move on.

cont.
 
When I dissect a case on camera and show the shortcomings, when I show the crappy and dangerous construction of knockoffs, I am clear that I am biased but I am clear that anyone can duplicate the dissection and find what I exposed. This is much different than if I were to knock the knockoffs by saying that they are dangerous to cues without providing any proof of such. I would be attempting to create a "fear" without showing any evidence or data that such a fear is justified. And if I went further and started denigrating all those who purchased and use knockoffs as gullible ignorant bumpkins I would absolutely be torched for that. So my point is that we can have respectful discussion where the objections to claims made can be presented without mocking and jeering. And "it just works" can be an acceptable answer from those who either can't or don't want to address those objections with the understanding that those folks just want to anecdotally share their experience of successful outcomes on the pool table. No one is going to get hurt over spending time or even a little money to learn an aiming system. Post the objections, in the form of thought-experiments or physical experiments and leave out the negative ad-hominem labeling. Then let the proponents who are interested in tackling those objections do so and have that respectful and civil discussion. Then, those interested can have all perspectives without having to wade through a river of shit.

Depending on the quality of the objections and the quality of the physical demonstrations/testing it is possible that those proponents interested in trying to figure out the why can find some insights that move the discussion in the direction of mutual agreement rather than get bogged down in flamewars. At the end of the day I think that most of us just want to find stuff that makes us happy and which doesn't hurt us. And to that end we shouldn't tolerate absurd claims but we should have some restraint in what we label as absurd. If we take a step back and think more broadly we can ask ourselves if the claims can benefit or can negatively impact our sport.

It is my opinion that aiming systems in general are helpful to our sport even if some of the claims made about them or against are currently unsupported by rigorous, unbiased testing. The reason I think this is because I want our sport to thrive and the more people who compete regularly the more that everyone from players to product makers benefits. Any time people are denigrated and defamed for their choices as to how to play the game the more opportunity exists for those people to simply quit and find a "friendlier" hobby. In general when someone is eager to learn and they are trying various methods they are having a good time, especially if what they are doing is giving them the results they want, such as making more shots, then why dampen that enthusiasm?

So that's the psychology of CTE users in my opinion. People who are enjoying the game through learning and using a method of aiming that, for them, is very objective and precise in the application. Not in any way cult-like devotion to unreasonable claims. Just effusive exuberance at finding a method that gives them joy when they play pool. Shitting on that experience with defamatory insults is simply uncool and unproductive IMO.
 
So that's the psychology of CTE users in my opinion. People who are enjoying the game through learning and using a method of aiming that, for them, is very objective and precise in the application. Not in any way cult-like devotion to unreasonable claims. Just effusive exuberance at finding a method that gives them joy when they play pool.
Right on... great comment
 
I so wish CTE, or any other system, was not viewed as a zero-sum game. I wish detractors could state that it doesn’t work for them, without being so militant that others shouldn’t use it. I don’t think proponents of CTE are perpetuating a fraud since there are supporters who seem to have strong opinions and results that it works for them.

For the record, I am not a fan, but I have not gone into it in detail.
 
People here have legitimate concerns about the vagueness of CTE. If they start pooing it it's probably due to the crude responses from the promo crew. Speederman, Low, and JB (who just uses more words) come to mind. Commercial Take Endeavor and people knocking their action is all that's about.
 
JB (who just uses more words)
Yes, I've noticed JB has two issues: 1) he can't NOT reply and 2) he can say something in 100 words that can be said in 10.

JB, this is not meant as a mean comment; rather, please take it as constructive criticism to try to be more concise.
 
I so wish CTE, or any other system, was not viewed as a zero-sum game. I wish detractors could state that it doesn’t work for them, without being so militant that others shouldn’t use it. I don’t think proponents of CTE are perpetuating a fraud since there are supporters who seem to have strong opinions and results that it works for them.

For the record, I am not a fan, but I have not gone into it in detail.
Not to be a dhead, but this part is obvious from your comments. You don't understand the debate.
 
Not to be a dhead, but this part is obvious from your comments. You don't understand the debate.
No, that's not a dhead comment and it's true I don't understand the debate. I suppose what I need to do, if I'm tired of every thread even sniffing of CTE devolving into the same retread comments back and forth and back and forth, is to stop reading them. How many times and ways can people on both sides of the debate keep saying the same things?

Maybe the way to stop giving CTE so much exposure is for detractors simply to stop commenting about it.

I'm to the point where I will probably quit reading new posts and responses related to CTE. Remember, I started this thread with a sincere question about CTE, requesting it not turn into a CTE debate. That didn't last very long.
 
I don’t think proponents of CTE are perpetuating a fraud
They are when they insist that CTE is "more objective" than other methods/systems. They don't perpetuate that fraud intentionally - they just don't understand how CTE actually works (pretty much like every other method). CTE seems to attract players who don't understand that.

pj
chgo
 
No, that's not a dhead comment and it's true I don't understand the debate. I suppose what I need to do, if I'm tired of every thread even sniffing of CTE devolving into the same retread comments back and forth and back and forth, is to stop reading them. How many times and ways can people on both sides of the debate keep saying the same things?

Maybe the way to stop giving CTE so much exposure is for detractors simply to stop commenting about it.

I'm to the point where I will probably quit reading new posts and responses related to CTE. Remember, I started this thread with a sincere question about CTE, requesting it not turn into a CTE debate. That didn't last very long.
It's what Pat says. The analogy I use is my jelly bean method. Put two jelly beans (available for sale by me for $50 each) in your left pocket and follow the practice drills in my 1000 page book (free with the jelly bean purchase) for 6 months two hours per day minimum. You will be astounded at how much better you get. I don't understand why people get upset when I come here to advertise my jelly bean method (JBM) here on AZ because the jelly beans in your pocket are forming a symbiotic bond with your chi and causing you to perceive the exact shot line. You don't even need to know how to play pool to make it work. It is a professional system that Dennis Orocllo and many other Pinoy players use but they don't tell anybody... it's a secret. I have a video of Dennis where he is adjusting his nuts but what he is really doing is reactivating the jelly beans. Every other system that others in this forum have developed and communicated on AZ are inferior to my professional jelly bean method for sale on my private facebook page. If you question any of this you are a hater and we'll try to get you banned for asking too many questions.

Get the point?
 
I started this thread with a sincere question about CTE, requesting it not turn into a CTE debate. That didn't last very long.
I didn't think your question was about CTE. You said you used a "version" of CTE, whatever that is, to pocket known angles but you were looking for a method to improve your ability with the other angles, ANY method. You really did not ask if "CTE" (whatever that is to you) can be used for other angles. One CTE person responded, "To answer your question though I never think about recognizing angles, just CB and OB relationships." I bet that was real helpful, huh?

I think you got a great reply from this thread. Any time Bob Jewett recommends something for you to practice, just do it. The thing you were really looking for as a shortcut is Poolology. Hopefully you've found some benefit from that. EVERY thread of any length devolves into something else. Your question has been answered to the extent it can be and now it has meandered into something else. If you post a follow up question it will get answered. Or, just post a new thread. Don't feel picked on because your thread turned into something else. They pretty much all do, lol.

Just my opinion. :)
 
Yes, I've noticed JB has two issues: 1) he can't NOT reply and 2) he can say something in 100 words that can be said in 10.

JB, this is not meant as a mean comment; rather, please take it as constructive criticism to try to be more concise.
The thing is that i just type what I think until I feel that I have adequately covered the points. I don't have to not reply. The purpose of a forum is to discuss.
 
They are when they insist that CTE is "more objective" than other methods/systems. They don't perpetuate that fraud intentionally - they just don't understand how CTE actually works (pretty much like every other method). CTE seems to attract players who don't understand that.

pj
chgo
You are incorrect.
 
i just type what I think until I feel that I have adequately covered the points.
Not many readers will bother to wade into a tsunami of verbiage (I don't). If you only addressed one or two points per post, focusing on brevity, you'd have more readers and be more persuasive.

It's also good practice to be sure you really understand what you're trying to say. Like Albert always said, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

pj
chgo
 
Not many readers will bother to wade into a tsunami of verbiage (I don't). If you only addressed one or two points per post, focusing on brevity, you'd have more readers and be more persuasive.

It's also good practice to be sure you really understand what you're trying to say. Like Albert always said, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

pj
chgo
Well I am not writing with getting more readers in mind. The readers will read what they want to. I put out the information that I feel is relevant to the points in the discussion. I have no need nor desire for an editor for what I write.

I have and can always explain any concept simply. But when the "other side" accepts no answer, whether simple and brief or reasoned and long, then whatever effort was expended was in vain if the expected outcome would be any change in demeanor from a small group of detractors. So best is to simply explain as best one can and not worry about collecting followers.

Plus, I am often not here for months so I have to leave enough content for my fans to have enough reading to ensure a good bowel movement.
 
It's what Pat says. The analogy I use is my jelly bean method. Put two jelly beans (available for sale by me for $50 each) in your left pocket and follow the practice drills in my 1000 page book (free with the jelly bean purchase) for 6 months two hours per day minimum. You will be astounded at how much better you get. I don't understand why people get upset when I come here to advertise my jelly bean method (JBM) here on AZ because the jelly beans in your pocket are forming a symbiotic bond with your chi and causing you to perceive the exact shot line. You don't even need to know how to play pool to make it work. It is a professional system that Dennis Orocllo and many other Pinoy players use but they don't tell anybody... it's a secret. I have a video of Dennis where he is adjusting his nuts but what he is really doing is reactivating the jelly beans. Every other system that others in this forum have developed and communicated on AZ are inferior to my professional jelly bean method for sale on my private facebook page. If you question any of this you are a hater and we'll try to get you banned for asking too many questions.

Get the point?
Where do I send my money...? ;)

FYI, I plan on carrying jelly beans with me to any tournament I play in. Just on the off chance I finish high enough for a photo op.
 
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