CF shafts and spin

whammo57 said:
anyone that says a CF shaft has low deflection............. has no idea what they are talking about

Kim
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I just ran a test with my Revo on Tuesday to show a new player what deflection was. House cue with right spin, hit over a ball away from the object ball on the far rail. Revo with same spin, hit almost full on. Now if you are talking about just any random CF shaft, then yes the deflection or them would be different, although I don't know of any CF shaft that has the deflection of a standard shaft. Even the ones that deflect more than the REVO like, well, most of them, are still LD, many to a decent exetent.
 
whammo57 said:
yes I have tried CF shafts... I also make them....... they are as stiff as a piece of iron and do not bend or flex........... when you hit the cue ball off center to the left or right........ the shaft does not deflect much at all....... they depends on how tight you are holding it in your bridge hand........... the cue ball deflects a greater mount than the shaft............ and you must account for that in your aiming when using side spin................ again:::: anyone that says a CF shaft has low deflection............. has no idea what they are talking about
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Wrong on just about everything here. Yes they are stiff but they also have very low end-mass which is THE main thing in reducing deflection. The worst cf shaft i've tried was lower in deflection than almost every wood shaft out there. Only the Z-taper Predators come close. The newer 12mm and smaller cf shafts are super low deflect.
 
whammo57 said:
yes I have tried CF shafts... I also make them....... they are as stiff as a piece of iron and do not bend or flex........... when you hit the cue ball off center to the left or right........ the shaft does not deflect much at all....... they depends on how tight you are holding it in your bridge hand........... the cue ball deflects a greater mount than the shaft............ and you must account for that in your aiming when using side spin................ again:::: anyone that says a CF shaft has low deflection............. has no idea what they are talking about
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Watch this slow motion shot. They may be stiff but they are not ironlike upon contact. Gauging deflection by stiffness/whippyness is a debunked concept from about 30-40 years ago. It’s the amount of mass near the tip that determines how much CB deflection is imparted.

Slow Motion Video Link (click here)
 
MattPoland said:
Watch this slow motion shot. They may be stiff but they are not ironlike upon contact. Gauging deflection by stiffness/whippyness is a debunked concept from about 30-40 years ago. It’s the amount of mass near the tip that determines how much CB deflection is imparted.

Slow Motion Video
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Stiffness is a factor but end-mass is far more important. This video CLEARLY shows the shaft getting out of the way.
 
whammo57 said:
yes I have tried CF shafts... I also make them....... they are as stiff as a piece of iron and do not bend or flex........... when you hit the cue ball off center to the left or right........ the shaft does not deflect much at all....... they depends on how tight you are holding it in your bridge hand........... the cue ball deflects a greater mount than the shaft............ and you must account for that in your aiming when using side spin................ again:::: anyone that says a CF shaft has low deflection............. has no idea what they are talking about
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That does sound intuitive, and for that reason it was at one time believed by quite a few people, but it has conclusively been proven wrong and as a result there are comparatively few people left believing it today. What causes the vast amount of squirt is the effective end mass (weight) in the last 5-8 inches of shaft at the tip end, and the stiffness of the shaft essentially does not contribute to squirt enough to make much practical difference in the real world.

It could also be possible that you use a bridge length that just happens to be at or near the natural pivot point for those shafts that you are comparing the carbon fiber and other shafts against, in which case they may seem to have less squirt because they may, for you and your bridge length, have less effective squirt for many shot types, even when they are in fact much higher squirt shafts.

Click and read through all the categories at the top of this page for all the explanations of and data to back up the above, including what things are responsible for what portions of squirt, how to objectively and accurately test for squirt between shafts yourself, how natural pivot points and effective squirt work, etc.
billiards.colostate.edu

Squirt and Cue Ball Deflection - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions (FAQs) about how to judge and compensate for cue ball deflection (squirt) in pool shots with sidespin (english).
billiards.colostate.edu billiards.colostate.edu
 
whammo57 said:
yes I have tried CF shafts... I also make them....... they are as stiff as a piece of iron and do not bend or flex........... when you hit the cue ball off center to the left or right........ the shaft does not deflect much at all....... they depends on how tight you are holding it in your bridge hand........... the cue ball deflects a greater mount than the shaft............ and you must account for that in your aiming when using side spin................ again:::: anyone that says a CF shaft has low deflection............. has no idea what they are talking about
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So you are measuring how much the shaft moves after striking the cue ball. Rather than how much the cue ball deflects from traveling in a straight line. Since they are 2 completely different movements, how can one logically be compared one to the other?

It's like saying I can jump higher than you can run in a race.
 
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MattPoland said:
I agree. I was emphasizing that even as CF is thought of as stiff, it’s not a steel piston or anything. It has plenty of give too. It wobbles after contact.
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The beauty of cf is that you can have both a stiff shaft that moves the ball around easy but also deflects(talking cb here) less. A stiff wood shaft generally has too much end-mass, the exception(s) are the Z-style taper shafts.
 
whammo57 said:
yes I have tried CF shafts... I also make them....... they are as stiff as a piece of iron and do not bend or flex........... when you hit the cue ball off center to the left or right........ the shaft does not deflect much at all....... they depends on how tight you are holding it in your bridge hand........... the cue ball deflects a greater mount than the shaft............ and you must account for that in your aiming when using side spin................ again:::: anyone that says a CF shaft has low deflection............. has no idea what they are talking about
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Buying tubes isn't engineering or making your own carbon fiber shaft... By all means, tell us about your process for making carbon fiber shafts. What weight tow do use?
Is your carbon fiber pre-preg?
What type of orientation are you using for your fibers?
 
9ballhasbeen said:
Buying tubes isn't engineering or making your own carbon fiber shaft... By all means, tell us about your process for making carbon fiber shafts. What weight tow do use?
Is your carbon fiber pre-preg?
What type of orientation are you using for your fibers?
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Seriously doubt he's making the tubes which i'm sure is your point. Very few companies do. Not even sure if Pred. does. I know they are finished in Boston but i don't know if they make the tubes as well. I know what the equip. for making golf shafts(same basic idea) cost and its very pricey, way beyond what cuemakers are gonna spend.
 
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garczar said:
Wrong on just about everything here. Yes they are stiff but they also have very low end-mass which is THE main thing in reducing deflection. The worst cf shaft i've tried was lower in deflection than almost every wood shaft out there. Only the Z-taper Predators come close. The newer 12mm and smaller cf shafts are super low deflect.
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My subjective estimate is that carbons come close to Z2. So far my Z2 is lowest what i have been able to shoot. Some carbons are same or little more. I have not yet found carbon that had lower than Z2. But in topic carbons are normally really low deflection. Cuetec and couple others have little more than Predators and Mezz.
 
garczar said:
Seriously doubt he's making the tubes which i'm sure is your point. Very few companies do. Not even sure if Pred. does. I know they are finished in Boston but i don't know if they make the tubes as well. I know what the equip. for making golf shafts(same basic idea) cost and its very pricey, way beyond what cuemakers are gonna spend.
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You are spot on sir. The only cue company making their own from CF from start to fininsh is Cuetec. They had a video showing the strands and spools at their factory in their booth at CSI/BCA/World 10-Ball. You're also right about Predator finishing them in Boston, and I believe Predator's source for the tubes is the same one as Pechauer.
 
9ballhasbeen said:
You are spot on sir. The only cue company making their own from CF from start to fininsh is Cuetec. They had a video showing the strands and spools at their factory in their booth at CSI/BCA/World 10-Ball. You're also right about Predator finishing them in Boston, and I believe Predator's source for the tubes is the same one as Pechauer.
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I'd do the same thing. Just have tubes made to your specs. No need to invest in all the equipment.
 
garczar said:
I'd do the same thing. Just have tubes made to your specs. No need to invest in all the equipment.
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My point was that ff Whammo57 claims to make their own, they should know something about how they requested their tube be made. I'm betting they are buying tubes off the rack, with no real knowledge of carbon fiber or its production.
 
9ballhasbeen said:
My point was that ff Whammo57 claims to make their own, they should know something about how they requested their tube be made. I'm betting they are buying tubes off the rack, with no real knowledge of carbon fiber or its production.
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He never he said he made the tubes. As for Cuetec did the rep say they made the tubes or just showed a video of tubes being made? Reason i ask is that there are a lot of outfits in Taiwan/China that make cf products. Cuetec/Imperial is mostly a marketing co. that has products made to their specs. and then they dist/sell them. I'd be quite surprised if they invested in all the equipment needed. Far more cost effective to have an outside source.
 
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Did some digging and found that the parent co. of Cuetec in China has been making cf car accessories and other sporting goods for some time so making cf poolcue shafts was probably a fairly smooth transition. Good to know.
 
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so for all you "I know everything" people............ no one makes CF shafts..... they all buy the blanks from china.............
 
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