Thanks Bob. Took the words right out of my mouth.
Need a Ruling on Is this Unsportsmanlike Conduct during BCA Rules 8-Ball Game
- Thread starter docgpmiller
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docgpmiller
Active member
Oh I agree with Bob and I have the utmost respect for him too.
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docgpmiller
Active member
Not only that - about 12 of them were still discussing it at the Club yesterday for over an hour from a game that happened Saturday. It go so bad that they wanted to suspend the guy's membership for between 7-30 days that is how ridiculous it got before I got involved in it to bring some reasoning to it this crazy conversation on Monday.
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What about the one pocket shot where you pin the cue ball against the rail with your tip and take a foul? I've seen that done before during gambling matches. Or just touch the cue ball with the side of your shaft and take a foul? Can you imagine Tony Chohan telling Alex Pagulayan that he is disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct, then breaks down his cue, grabs the $200k off the light and walks out..
In your post #20, the pic of "Equipment Specifications", #2 states the tables playing surface should be 30" give or take 1/2".
Bring this point up at y'all's next get-together, then sit back with some beer and popcorn!
I think the members need to see some rules in action, maybe by going to one of the league National Championships in Las Vegas. This experience points out how hard it is to learn a game in isolation simply from the rule book. It's probably complicated by some players going by what they learned by word of mouth 50 years ago.
If someone has no experience with the wider world of pool, they might think that failure to call a shot is a foul. It is not. Nor is it unsportsmanlike conduct. The only penalty -- if you want to call it a penalty -- for failure to call your shot when required is that you lose your turn regardless of what happens on the shot. That's true whether you simply forget to call a pocket or flat out refuse to call a pocket.
I think in the future you should just translate "I refuse to call a pocket" to "I'm playing safe" and move on.
Of course failure to call the pocket that the eight ball falls into is loss of game, but that's a special case.
Those are not BCAPL/CSI league rules. The reason the shooter doesnt have to call a pocket is because his shot was a foul, by hitting the 8 first he committed a foul, even if he did call a pocket and made his ball it would still have been a foul making his pocket call a moot point. If a player calls a safety there is no reason to call a pocket as you can but are not expected pocket a ball on a safety. The reason the player calls a ball in the first place is because BCAPL pool is a no slop game where the object ball that he pockets must go in the pocket he calls, if that does indeed happen he is allowed to shoot again. If his called ball goes in a different pocket than what he called he is not allowed the opportunity to shoot again. By not shooting at a legal ball and by not calling a pocket he is essentially giving up his rights to a next shot if he pockets a ball. But there is a catch, if the shooter intends to call a safety but doesnt and he legally pockets a ball while proceeding to hook himself you could make him shoot again to get ball in hand. So it can be important to call a safety even if you dont intend to make a ball because sometimes shit happens. At any rate all the shooter in your example did was given up BIH by taking an intentional foul.I did downloaded Official Rules CueSports International Used by BCAPL and USAPL Book.
It was interesting to note on Page 5 and 6 about Sportsmanship and Pockets must be called and it is stated there are no exceptions under any circumstances. Attached are the photos of the pages that I am referring to in this comment. So what are the consequences of this as I think I may know but I don't want to assume anything right now. Looking for your input about it. Just for reference to also note that we do have a copy of the other book on Billiards from the BCA
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Nothing unsporting about playing an intentional foul and giving ball in hand. I can't speak for those who are unaware of this rule, but those that whine and moan and jump up and down and throw their toys because "it shouldn't be a rule" when someone calls "safety" or "no pocket" or plays an intentional foul are unsporting in my book.
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That is a common 10-ball rule, but I’ve never heard of that being a rule in 8-ball.
In any case, communication is good, and if the other players asked what he was doing he should communicate clearly that he was playing an intentional foul. It sounds like no one there really knew the rules, so
Simple foul.
Unsportsmanship is more like acting a fool while your Opponent is attempting to make their shot.
Rules are put in place to prevent certain things from happening.
The whole point of the call pocket rule is so that you can't slop a ball in and keep on playing. That's not what happened here. It's a simple foul.
Cars have a speedo so that driver can stay within the speed limit. If the speedo is broke, but your under the limit, you're not getting a speeding ticket.
Anyone trying to claim that intentionally playing a foul is "unsporting" is either a desperado, or hasn't faced many obstacles in life.
If it's the same few players bumping their gums and complaining all the time, consider if the league would be more enjoyable overall if they were encouraged to play elsewhere.
The whole point of the call pocket rule is so that you can't slop a ball in and keep on playing. That's not what happened here. It's a simple foul.
Cars have a speedo so that driver can stay within the speed limit. If the speedo is broke, but your under the limit, you're not getting a speeding ticket.
Anyone trying to claim that intentionally playing a foul is "unsporting" is either a desperado, or hasn't faced many obstacles in life.
If it's the same few players bumping their gums and complaining all the time, consider if the league would be more enjoyable overall if they were encouraged to play elsewhere.
You cannot get a bunch of people to all agree that water is wet. Let your club members know that there is 100% total agreement among experienced knowledgeable players that what he did was not a foul and was not unsportsmanlike conduct and is fully ok.
Intentional foul. Ball in hand. If player x can’t run four balls with ball in hand then perhaps player x should spend more time on the table and less time in the rule book. Just sayin’
If they did not use the cueball to strike the other balls it should be a loss of game. If they did a legal hit of the cueball into the other balls, all good. There are specific core rules if you try to bypass them that count as a sportsmanship violation or a flagrant foul. Striking the object ball directly with a cue is one of them. Stopping a cueball from breaking up a cluster on a missed shot would be another, things that would change the outcome of the game done illegally.
Just curious. Been a minute since I played BCA leagues.
If you all a Safe, execute it according to the rules, and avoid breaking up an opponent’s cluster, how is that a Sportsmanship violation? Or, if you don‘t call a Safe and just purposely miss to not break up an opponent’s balls, how is that any sort of unsportsmanlike?
Maybe I just misunderstood.
Don't think you have the situation correct in your head. Say you go for a kick and miss it, the cueball is heading towards a group of balls. You catch the cueball before it reaches them since you fouled anyway. Or it's heading in the direction of an 8 ball that is hanging and may hit it, so you stop it. That is now a flagrant foul not just a foul. Basically you are stopping a ball that is still rolling in the execution of a shot when it has a good chance of being in benefit to your opponent.
There is actually a video of a match where Mika does this vs SVB, he whiffed on a kick and put his cue in the way of the cueball as it was heading towards a pair of tied up balls. SVB complained but nothing was called since there was probably not a ref watching.
I’m mixed on this topic. Nothing wrong with the intentional foul and not calling a pocket.
The thing I’m hearing is that a player refused to inform his opponent of his intent when asked. I’m not hearing in what manner.
I can see that happening in a fairly innocent manner and a nit trying to get a bigger penalty out of a simple situation. In which the standard ball in hand penalty should stand for hitting the wrong ball first.
I can also see a player being aggressively rude and confrontational in his refusal to share his intent. “Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to know what I’m doing. It won’t f-ing matter so just shut the f- up and watch you stupid idiot.” Then I’m thinking an unsportsmanlike penalty would be fitting depending on the culture and leadership of that session of organized play.
The thing I’m hearing is that a player refused to inform his opponent of his intent when asked. I’m not hearing in what manner.
I can see that happening in a fairly innocent manner and a nit trying to get a bigger penalty out of a simple situation. In which the standard ball in hand penalty should stand for hitting the wrong ball first.
I can also see a player being aggressively rude and confrontational in his refusal to share his intent. “Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to know what I’m doing. It won’t f-ing matter so just shut the f- up and watch you stupid idiot.” Then I’m thinking an unsportsmanlike penalty would be fitting depending on the culture and leadership of that session of organized play.