FargoRate?

[Chili Palmer]

If by "have value" you mean "is unique in the pool world and all but impossible to be replicated by anyone else".

Code is cheap. Data is expensive.

APA could potentially equal or better Fargo's game database but that's unlikely to happen for many reasons.

The APA has been using their system for 30 years, I guarantee their database is infinitely larger than FR and unless the APA goes out of business it will be decades before FR catches up. Keep in mind, a LOT of APA players also play in FR rated leagues and in the APA they play way more games per week. Given that, I seriously doubt if FR is catching up at this point. That being said, FR has changed the way people view their "status" and more people are moving towards it, but it would still take many, many years (if not decades) for FR to catch up.

EDIT: The APA lists 250,000 players currently, given my knowledge of the local market I would say that's closer to 150,000 at this point. I do not know how many play on FR leagues.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The APA has been using their system for 30 years, I guarantee their database is infinitely larger than FR ....

Do the LOs send all the score sheets to the League Office? I'm guessing they retain no more than two years of match data if that.

But a rough calculation suggests that they have about 10,000,000 games per year.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Do the LOs send all the score sheets to the League Office? I'm guessing they retain no more than two years of match data if that.

But a rough calculation suggests that they have about 10,000,000 games per year.

Yep, every score sheet is sent in, and now it's actually done via APP so it's instant

And I'd be willing to bet they don't purge any data. Data to obtain may be expensive, but data storage is obscenely cheap. I would be interested know how far back their data goes though, given it was probably done by spreadsheet/custom DB in the early days.

 

[easy-e]

Yep, every score sheet is sent in, and now it's actually done via APP so it's instant

And I'd be willing to bet they don't purge any data. Data to obtain may be expensive, but data storage is obscenely cheap. I would be interested know how far back their data goes though, given it was probably done by spreadsheet/custom DB in the early days.

Is their data as valuable? I’m not sure it isn’t, just asking. It seems like APA handicapping wouldn’t yield the same type of data.

 

[AF pool guy]

Is their data as valuable? I’m not sure it isn’t, just asking. It seems like APA handicapping wouldn’t yield the same type of data.

Games wone and lost against another known player and when is all the data Fargo needs to calculate a rating. The APA nine ball data would be pretty much worthless though since it is points based not games based.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[The_JV]

What makes the Fargo data/rate interesting for me, is the data they have on the players that wouldn't be caught dead playing in a APA league. I like having some tangable reference between my own ability to the pros throughout the world.

APA can have more data in orders of magnitude, but it doesn't mean it's worth a sh!t.

 

[jtompilot]

What makes the Fargo data/rate interesting for me, is the data they have on the players that wouldn't be caught dead playing in a APA league. I like having some tangable reference between my own ability to the pros throughout the world.

APA can have more data in orders of magnitude, but it doesn't mean it's worth a sh!t.

My first visit to Austin playing in Friday night tournament, I caught a super gear and beat a 724 FR, 4-1. Then I lost to a 709, 4-1 and the 724 then beat me 3-1 on the loser side. I took third and my first FR was 695. It's been going down ever since. I guess my game varies over 100 points on any given day

 

[The_JV]

My first visit to Austin playing in Friday night tournament, I caught a super gear and beat a 724 FR, 4-1. Then I lost to a 709, 4-1 and the 724 then beat me 3-1 on the loser side. I took third and my first FR was 695. It's been going down ever since. I guess my game varies over 100 points on any given day

Speaking for myself, I know that getting a taste of a ranking system that's actually based on real math is intoxicating. So much so, you'll focus on nothing more than wanting to see that number climb. The 'problem' is how rapidly that number will bounce around in the early stages of building up a history.

Don't stressa about it too hard. Eventually you'll end up with a number that's a fair assessment of your ability.

 

[skip100]

The APA has been using their system for 30 years, I guarantee their database is infinitely larger than FR and unless the APA goes out of business it will be decades before FR catches up. Keep in mind, a LOT of APA players also play in FR rated leagues and in the APA they play way more games per week. Given that, I seriously doubt if FR is catching up at this point. That being said, FR has changed the way people view their "status" and more people are moving towards it, but it would still take many, many years (if not decades) for FR to catch up.

EDIT: The APA lists 250,000 players currently, given my knowledge of the local market I would say that's closer to 150,000 at this point. I do not know how many play on FR leagues.

I agree with a lot of this. They also potentially have more textured data with innings, break and runs, etc.

That said, APA would be starting from scratch with pros and high-level amateurs - the most important and high profile examples from a marketing perspective. It’s also unclear (as others noted) how complete or organized their data is.

 

[mikepage]

Do the LOs send all the score sheets to the League Office? I'm guessing they retain no more than two years of match data if that.

But a rough calculation suggests that they have about 10,000,000 games per year.

FargoRate crossed 20 million games on Sept 1 and is on track to cross 22 million before 2021 is over. About 17,000 games per day are going in, and that number is on the rise.

While more data is always better, the value to the system we might assign to each particular game varies a lot. In general recent games amongst broadly connected players are most valuable. This generally means high-level players. Importantly, games amongst high-level players are more important not because or not merely because we value the ratings of higher-level players more. They are more important even if our primary interest was the ratings of local, low-level players.

Consider as an analogy that for economic activity using inland waterways in the US, more navigable miles is better, But a 10-mile stretch of the Mississippi or Columbia Rivers is far more impactful than is a 10 mile stretch of the Kenduskeag Stream, a tributary of the Penobscot River in Maine. Our two million games in the last two years played by players rated 700 or higher are those major waterways.

Take Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, New Zealand, Sweden, and Poland, for examples. In each case we have 60,000 or more games played in the last two years. But it is not ANY 60,000. If what we had was local club competitions, it would be far less valuable. Instead what we have is the major waterways. This is what makes the local data more valuable when it DOES come in.

 

[hang-the-9]

The APA has been using their system for 30 years, I guarantee their database is infinitely larger than FR and unless the APA goes out of business it will be decades before FR catches up. Keep in mind, a LOT of APA players also play in FR rated leagues and in the APA they play way more games per week. Given that, I seriously doubt if FR is catching up at this point. That being said, FR has changed the way people view their "status" and more people are moving towards it, but it would still take many, many years (if not decades) for FR to catch up.

EDIT: The APA lists 250,000 players currently, given my knowledge of the local market I would say that's closer to 150,000 at this point. I do not know how many play on FR leagues.

With how the leagues track stats and the limits to their rankings (outside of BCA and USAPL), I would trust Fargo to get a much more accurate picture of a player's skill. Not counting the fact a lot of league players cheat the handicap system, not many smart ones would do the same in an actual tournament with even races unless they just hate having money. if you have a system where one player needs to win 3 games to another player's 6, it's just incentive to stay on the low side or easy games. If you are playing in a tournament with even races, you either play to your actual skill or you lose. In the recent APA championships there as an APA 5 that had a Fargo rating of over 600, and several others with the same messed up handicaps. I'm sure if we look at the other players APA ratings vs their Fargo ratings we will find that many of them have an APA rating that does not line up with their Fargo rating, with the Fargo rating being the higher number that is very likely the correct number as well. I have very rarely run across someone who's Fargo rating I did not agree with, unless they had a low number of games in the system, but with APA it's almost constant with APA 4s and 5s that play me just about even in actual tournaments and I would be an APA 7/9 probably (I'm a 7 in TAP now which is pretty much the same rating).

The only league rating that I trust is the max rating, everything else is suspect.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Games wone and lost against another known player and when is all the data Fargo needs to calculate a rating. The APA nine ball data would be pretty much worthless though since it is points based not games based.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Actually, that's an excellent point, they may be able to use innings but I'm not sure I would trust that data. That being said, they have been using their app, which does track wins, for a couple of years now.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I agree with a lot of this. They also potentially have more textured data with innings, break and runs, etc.

That said, APA would be starting from scratch with pros and high-level amateurs - the most important and high profile examples from a marketing perspective. It’s also unclear (as others noted) how complete or organized their data is.

As far as data entry goes, when they were using paper the LO's would have to hand enter that data into the national DB. I can't account for any other LO's than my experience in Boise but, I can guarantee our LO's were VERY accurate at entering that data. Now that it's an app, it's even more accurate.

The only goofy thing that people while using the app is select different balls pocketed. During a match the people keeping score should reconcile after each game, i.e. I might say "I got 19-4" (depending who is on top), their person would either agree or disagree, if disagree a quick reconcile is done without stopping the game, if it's too far off the game will usually be stopped. When they don't reconcile after each game and decide to reconcile 4 games in and it's off, then it gets confusing and if it's determined the issue was a few games ago you have to delete the games and go back to the offending game, at that point to speed things up, we wouldn't care what balls were made (to speed things up) - i.e. if their team had my guy making the 1, 4, 6, and 9 - when re-entering the game all that was cared about was my guy made 3 balls and the 9B so we'll just tap the 1, 2, 3, and 9B - correct ball count and the win.

EDIT: They really do appear to be a professional organization and I can't imaging their data is not managed with integrity in mind.

 

[Chili Palmer]

FargoRate crossed 20 million games on Sept 1 and is on track to cross 22 million before 2021 is over. About 17,000 games per day are going in, and that number is on the rise.

While more data is always better, the value to the system we might assign to each particular game varies a lot. In general recent games amongst broadly connected players are most valuable. This generally means high-level players. Importantly, games amongst high-level players are more important not because or not merely because we value the ratings of higher-level players more. They are more important even if our primary interest was the ratings of local, low-level players.

Consider as an analogy that for economic activity using inland waterways in the US, more navigable miles is better, But a 10-mile stretch of the Mississippi or Columbia Rivers is far more impactful than is a 10 mile stretch of the Kenduskeag Stream, a tributary of the Penobscot River in Maine. Our two million games in the last two years played by players rated 700 or higher are those major waterways.

Take Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, New Zealand, Sweden, and Poland, for examples. In each case we have 60,000 or more games played in the last two years. But it is not ANY 60,000. If what we had was local club competitions, it would be far less valuable. Instead what we have is the major waterways. This is what makes the local data more valuable when it DOES come in.

I'm assuming it's the consistency in the high level players? That being said, I would think a low level guy (sub-500?) with 1,000 games against players in 50 different locations would be more valuable than a high level player with 1000 games in 1 location against, mostly, the same people because you don't learn anything new with 1 location?

 

[Chili Palmer]

With how the leagues track stats and the limits to their rankings (outside of BCA and USAPL), I would trust Fargo to get a much more accurate picture of a player's skill. Not counting the fact a lot of league players cheat the handicap system, not many smart ones would do the same in an actual tournament with even races unless they just hate having money. if you have a system where one player needs to win 3 games to another player's 6, it's just incentive to stay on the low side or easy games. If you are playing in a tournament with even races, you either play to your actual skill or you lose. In the recent APA championships there as an APA 5 that had a Fargo rating of over 600, and several others with the same messed up handicaps. I'm sure if we look at the other players APA ratings vs their Fargo ratings we will find that many of them have an APA rating that does not line up with their Fargo rating, with the Fargo rating being the higher number that is very likely the correct number as well. I have very rarely run across someone who's Fargo rating I did not agree with, unless they had a low number of games in the system, but with APA it's almost constant with APA 4s and 5s that play me just about even in actual tournaments and I would be an APA 7/9 probably (I'm a 7 in TAP now which is pretty much the same rating).

The only league rating that I trust is the max rating, everything else is suspect.

I would venture to say that FR only gives you a possible win percentage, which is quite different than skill.

The APA system tracks skill, rather than win percentage.

People can, and do, sandbag in both leagues but I'll say this - it happens FAR more in FR rated stuff. There are very few APA only players that have the wherewithal to do something like that. If they have the ability to do it in APA then chances are they are also in FR leagues. Most of the one's doing it FR leagues more than likely don't play in the "beginners" league.

 

[mikepage]

I'm assuming it's the consistency in the high level players? That being said, I would think a low level guy (sub-500?) with 1,000 games against players in 50 different locations would be more valuable than a high level player with 1000 games in 1 location against, mostly, the same people because you don't learn anything new with 1 location?

Yes, that't true. There is nothing special about being high-level. It's just that as a group they tend to seek out other high-level competition which generally means coupling different groups.

 

[justadub]

Do the LOs send all the score sheets to the League Office? I'm guessing they retain no more than two years of match data if that.

But a rough calculation suggests that they have about 10,000,000 games per year.

I can go back and view my APA won-loss records for the 12 years I've been playing. So I fully assume that APA National has all that information stored and at their disposal.

Still, the cool thing about Fargo versus any pie-in-the-sky potential similar APA based system is that Fargo includes the pro's, and those who won't play APA level pool. I don't have a Fargo rating, and likely won't, since there aren't enough local events that will submit to Fargo (and my general lack of playing outside of league), but its always fun to see guys that I play against, and their Fargo ratings. It at least gives me a vague comparison.

 

[Chili Palmer]

The number one sandbagging complaint in the APA is at tournaments. In the beginning I didn't put much thought into it but then Mike (FR) said something a while back that caught my attention (and I mentioned it earlier in this thread) - a player can/will play 50 points above/below their rating. You don't think the APA players are psyched about playing in Vegas and work their ass off? During the rest of the year they're just banging balls and having fun but if they're playing a tournament, even local, they'll practice their ass off (if they want to win).

So, is there sandbagging, yep, is it rampant - not in the APA and I doubt it's "rampant" anywhere, but IMHO, it is more likely to happen in a FR league. In the APA you're in it for the fun and a small chance at a free trip to Vegas, in FR, it's a much more personally driven goal - to win money

 

[Chili Palmer]

And this is a statement I will stand by - the APA vets their LO's pretty well, you can't just walk up and get a region. Not sure what that process is like for BCA but in my experience it's not that structured. It's my understanding that even though there is a local BCA league I could start a new one to compete with it.

What kind of shady people do that?

 

[justadub]

And this is a statement I will stand by - the APA vets their LO's pretty well, you can't just walk up and get a region. Not sure what that process is like for BCA but in my experience it's not that structured. It's my understanding that even though there is a local BCA league I could start a new one to compete with it.

What kind of shady people do that?

Plus the APA LO has to purchase a territory, which can be a substantial investment. I'm not sure that there is that requirement for the other leagues.