Will Fargorate accept any tournament with full match scores?

"Well, in AMERICA, that may be true, because all Americans wanna do is win money..."

If you should ever move back to the States we'll at least have one player that cares about more than money.
 
geeez, I certainly wouldn't want to be fined by German state Liga management,
I'll hope that any importing of such motivations has its limits.

Short Bus you're conflating the hustle and league play when it comes to gambling.

That import mechanism can handle the games of round robin match ups, even if it's unknown who's playing who at game time, all the better when it comes to the legit part for such a format. Once you get past, learn, the initial set up from the back end to conclusion, the options prompt on match entries make it possible for all the player games (points), it will help the public display (results) having equal number of games for all players.

Just a quick thought on two different formats within one event (tournament) as far as the machine understanding what to record and display would be to set up two different games/sessions even though anybody paying attention would know that those results are from one tournament.

There are some memory prompts on players when doing the data game entries however there is a lot of repetitive data field work to it (the unknown), while getting it right, the machine doesn't discern motivations and character assignations are pain so..., they, Brain will implore the importance of getting it right.

you can do it...
I think the "problem" that causes Mike Page to not want to accept American round robin results is much more to do with the poor pool culture in America, than it does to do with any inherent problem with round robin results in general. American pool players have their priorities completely screwed up, which is why they don't get the international results that other, smaller countries with less money to put into the game do. We should be straight up embarrassed that you can throw a stick into any pool hall in Poland and hit 5 players that would absolutely wipe the floor with the five best players in any major geographic area of the United States. There are private clubs all over Europe, funded by membership fees, where the whole goal is to simply get better at the game, and as such, the members will fund training programs for the club.

Whereas American players are scheming on how to manipulate Fargorate to win a monthly tournament. Round robin events simply make that easier. It's not a problem in Europe, which is why American round robin results are seen as much less reliable. I can't blame Mike Page in the least for this. The gambling mentality holds American pool players back in so many ways. Drinking while gambling.. Taking extracurricular substances when you are representing your country on the world stage.. Sound familiar? But, "Muh Freedom".
 
hummm...
troughing a 40$ cue in a club there and here match of its best 5 400 players would have a good cleansing affect for the machine, looking forward to it.
 
I think the "problem" that causes Mike Page to not want to accept American round robin results is much more to do with the poor pool culture in America, than it does to do with any inherent problem with round robin results in general. American pool players have their priorities completely screwed up, which is why they don't get the international results that other, smaller countries with less money to put into the game do.

It's not a problem in Europe, which is why American round robin results are seen as much less reliable.
Lots of truth in here, but a bit wrong too. America is certainly much worse than Europe about stuff like this, but it isn't only America, it is lots of places. Filipinos might be worst of all for that type of collusion, especially when they are on foreign soil. It is unlikely that you are going to run a round robin tournament with more than one Filipino in it and not have collusion unless they just didn't have any need for it that particular time. And it happens in Europe too and you are deluding yourself if you think it doesn't. Some places/peoples are definitely worse about it than others, substantially so, but it is an issue to some extent everywhere.

The format is just terribly and irreparably flawed, although there are things that lessen the incentive to abuse it somewhat such as the pool culture (and culture in general) in Europe, and certain rules put in place such as what the IPT did with the format, etc. It would be perhaps the perfect format for perfect people, but for humans it is a total failure and should almost never be used for any serious competition with prizes.
 
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I think the "problem" that causes Mike Page to not want to accept American round robin results is much more to do with the poor pool culture in America, than it does to do with any inherent problem with round robin results in general. American pool players have their priorities completely screwed up, which is why they don't get the international results that other, smaller countries with less money to put into the game do. We should be straight up embarrassed that you can throw a stick into any pool hall in Poland and hit 5 players that would absolutely wipe the floor with the five best players in any major geographic area of the United States. There are private clubs all over Europe, funded by membership fees, where the whole goal is to simply get better at the game, and as such, the members will fund training programs for the club.

Whereas American players are scheming on how to manipulate Fargorate to win a monthly tournament. Round robin events simply make that easier. It's not a problem in Europe, which is why American round robin results are seen as much less reliable. I can't blame Mike Page in the least for this. The gambling mentality holds American pool players back in so many ways. Drinking while gambling.. Taking extracurricular substances when you are representing your country on the world stage.. Sound familiar? But, "Muh Freedom".

i think you have some very good points.

people are playing for peanuts anyway and gambling with the same few people, it's just peanuts being shuffled around. if you're in it for the money, forget about it. very, very few players are making a living out of pool or even decent side money.
 
We’ve seen ones from TD’s who we’ve had significant interactions with and seem legitimate with a handful that look fine, and at some point things change. When you can choose a small number of participants, you can choose some who want a higher rating and some who want a lower rating. You can choose some who don’t care and others who do. You can avoid inviting anybody who wouldn’t put up with shenanigans. You can include phantom players and not play at all. So long as your phantom players are not people checking their game history, a RR event can be the work of just a single person with no checks or balances.


At our western BCA double elimination tournaments you circle the winner and write down the loser's score. So the score from any given match could be anywhere from 7-0 to 7-6 depending on what they write down prior to handing in the sheet. No one else is watching. Each score is a loss but a huge difference from Fargorate's point of view and there is lot's of opportunity for cheating, Buddies play each other all the time at these things.

Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. I can think of many ways of gaming the system through LMS if I was so inclined to do so for what that is worth.

To say that a trusted person will turn crooked after much behavior and start cheating Fargorate is paranoid and cynical and sort of sad. Even if it's true in some isolated cases.

Why not only enter scores of games that are watched live by a Fargorate staff member?

All we wanted to do was enhance fargorate in our area. Bring it's value up so to speak.

It's your baby and if you want to throw it out with the bath water that's on you. Good grief.
 
The first sentence is fine, and the second sentence is not a good summary of our concern.

Why won’t FargoRate process Round-Robin events?

The short answer is the format is a slime magnet

While data integrity can’t be guaranteed for any event, several small factors typically work together to encourage it. I’ll list some of those for an example event and then comment on round robin format

Typical event: Wednesday race-to-3 9-Ball at Joe’s poolroom run by TD Bill

Factors that contribute to data integrity.

(1) TD Bill runs regular events and has a reputation in the local pool community to protect

(2) Proprietor Joe has a reputation in the local pool community to protect

(3) This event, advertised in advance, is either open to anybody or open to anybody who meets a rating range or other broad criteria. This means I as a player cannot choose my specific opponents and I cannot choose who is in the event.

(4) If I play well, I may log 30 or more games into FargoRate. But if for some reason I significantly underperform, I am likely logging fewer than 10 games into FargoRate. Fewer games means less influence on a rating and also higher per-game investment.

(5) Because the event is open to a broad range of people, I don’t know who will be looking at the online bracket and perusing the scores.

(6) Because it is a random group of players, it’s hard for us to collude on things like playing for less than the stated entry fee or playing for nothing or recording wrong scores or putting players on the bracket who are not playing.

Many of these protections, which are not perfect but are pretty good, are lost with round-robin events.
Round Robin events are often run by one-off “TD”s who for some reason are anxious to get games into FargoRate. They can be run at a pool room, at the bar, at a house, or not be actually run at all. We've had a number something like this: the “TD” has 4 “opponents,” all 100 points lower and the “TD” loses 1-9 1-9, 3-9, and 2-9. We’ve seen ones with “opponents” who have been curiously inactive for the last few years and even dead. We’ve seen ones from TD’s who we’ve had significant interactions with and seem legitimate with a handful that look fine, and at some point things change. When you can choose a small number of participants, you can choose some who want a higher rating and some who want a lower rating. You can choose some who don’t care and others who do. You can avoid inviting anybody who wouldn’t put up with shenanigans. You can include phantom players and not play at all. So long as your phantom players are not people checking their game history, a RR event can be the work of just a single person with no checks or balances.

We can run statistical checks to see how well data from a particular category match with expectation. The answer is FINE for high-entry tournaments, FINE for league games, FINE for low-entry-fee tournaments, and NOT FINE for round-robin events.
You may be thinking well *I* am a trusted person who doesn’t do these things, is honest and above board and public and all that and *our* events are legitimate. And that’s probably true. But we have to look at the category of event as a whole, and this one is a slime magnet.
'Slime Magnet'. Great descriptor. Great name for metal band. ;)
 
I know plenty of folks who play (throw) in bca leagues and low-money tourneys just to sandbag their fargorates so they can benefit in the bigger money fargo-handicapped tourneys. Unfortunately, no matter what rating system is used, there are always people who try and do manipulate the data for their financial gain. And the ones that do it can literally play 50 points or more higher than their "skewed" fargo when they need to.
 
I know plenty of folks who play (throw) in bca leagues and low-money tourneys just to sandbag their fargorates so they can benefit in the bigger money fargo-handicapped tourneys. Unfortunately, no matter what rating system is used, there are always people who try and do manipulate the data for their financial gain. And the ones that do it can literally play 50 points or more higher than their "skewed" fargo when they need to.
This may be true but what's hilarious about these types is they are math challenged and come out on the losing end in the game and life more often than not. Also, I would say 50 points would be the max manipulation possible, if that, and compared to other systems that's doing awesome if you ask me.
 
This may be true but what's hilarious about these types is they are math challenged and come out on the losing end in the game and life more often than not. Also, I would say 50 points would be the max manipulation possible, if that, and compared to other systems that's doing awesome if you ask me.
Don't underestimate the intelligence of cheaters, that's what they want you to do.
Hustlers aren't stupid, the people they hustle are.
 
This may be true but what's hilarious about these types is they are math challenged and come out on the losing end in the game and life more often than not. Also, I would say 50 points would be the max manipulation possible, if that, and compared to other systems that's doing awesome if you ask me.
There is no better cesspool for fargo dumping for those inclined to do so than league play. Play on a bad team and as long as you show up and buy a round for the team no one will say jack about it if you lose every single game. The opponent for sure won't care.

Anyone want to wager I can lower my fargo by 100 points by summer? Will I be banned from Fargorate? My defense will be but but it was in league play where the data is FINE.!! Since I run our league who is going to complain? I'll just be another benevolent trustee turned slime. Then when the league fires me I'll run round robin events for a living. :LOL:

We're looking seriously at APA out here. The rules may be goofy but what the hell.
 
There is no better cesspool for fargo dumping for those inclined to do so than league play. Play on a bad team and as long as you show up and buy a round for the team no one will say jack about it if you lose every single game. The opponent for sure won't care.

Anyone want to wager I can lower my fargo by 100 points by summer? Will I be banned from Fargorate? My defense will be but but it was in league play where the data is FINE.!! Since I run our league who is going to complain? I'll just be another benevolent trustee turned slime. Then when the league fires me I'll run round robin events for a living. :LOL:

We're looking seriously at APA out here. The rules may be goofy but what the hell.
I suppose there's some truth to this as even my rating is mainly based off of league play from several years ago, that I didn't even know was being input. I actually don't even have a robust rating yet, that's how rarely I play. With our league in previous years, the problem was always we were so much better than most of the other teams, it always seemed ruthless to take it too seriously. So we just had fun with it and got our weeks in. So while not sandbagging, it certainly wasn't even as serious as the practice table our team would shoot on during league night.
 
I suppose there's some truth to this as even my rating is mainly based off of league play from several years ago, that I didn't even know was being input. I actually don't even have a robust rating yet, that's how rarely I play. With our league in previous years, the problem was always we were so much better than most of the other teams, it always seemed ruthless to take it too seriously. So we just had fun with it and got our weeks in. So while not sandbagging, it certainly wasn't even as serious as the practice table our team would shoot on during league night.
We've looked at lots of leagues that people describe like this. I think most would be surprised at the degree to which the pecking order stays about the same. Maybe it's because you're not actually playing significantly worse when you loosen things up. Maybe it is because your opponents also don't care as much and are there to have a good time.
 
We've looked at lots of leagues that people describe like this. I think most would be surprised at the degree to which the pecking order stays about the same. Maybe it's because you're not actually playing significantly worse when you loosen things up. Maybe it is because your opponents also don't care as much and are there to have a good time.
I believe that.

Like I said, this was even before I knew they were using the data for FR. Anything that I touch that's going to FR now, I'll take seriously for the most part. I do think there's a certain way you can play 8 ball against lesser players that would greatly improve your win percentage, like never going for a difficult out for one, but you wouldn't really employ this strategy in a league setting without quickly running out of drinking buddies :) When I lose against way less skilled opponents it's almost always because of this. I suppose in the overall FR scheme, this sort of win at all costs strategy and its impact on your rating is probably fairly negligible, say maybe 25 points at most.
 
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