Statement from The Legends of Pocket Billiards

[Cameron Smith]

you are mostly right.

But a small "but":
if you are jogging for your pleasure around the block, nobody cares how you do it. If you beat the world record in 100m run, expect some doping testing and some closer look at how you did it.

He did the same questioning for the record of John Schmidt, so I consider it fair. (And there was a promise of free uploading of the full run later the day, where he later decided differently).

But I agree that overall this is a great challenge and it's good for the sport. And as long as every new player stays under 5 1/8'' for corner pockets for his high run attemts, I am ok with it.

I have a little problem with a perma rack, since there is no need for a breakball anymore if all the balls are frozen. So the rules have to be changed some here. I ordered the Perma-Rack and will make a video, what I mean. But basically i can call and make the corner ball from the rack probably about 8 out of 10, perhaps even more. But this is probably another thread.

I would agree with this *if* there were any standards or criteria for these runs to begin with. I mean, if we go way back the record was at one point in the 300's and it was set on a 10-foot table. Then later that record was broken on a 9-foot table with a 400ish ball run. Then Willie ran 526 on an 8-foot table with (by many accounts) 5.25" pockets. And that ignores the fact that we have accounts of Willie running in the 580's and over 600. Then we have Eufemia who ran 625 but that was not recognized. And then Cranfield ran a pair of 700's that were never recognized.

The numbers I'm giving are not terribly accurate, but the point is that the criteria for these things have been very arbitrary and it's not really mattered because no one has really tried in 60 years to set the record. The only constant is that these runs are set on a table that is twice as long as it is wide, has pool cloth, cushions, and 6 pockets with 16, 2 1/4 inch balls.

If record attempts are going to be a thing, then yes I would agree that standards should be set to declare maximum table specs and also attempt formats. To my mind, putting a camera on you for a month blurs the line between exhibition and practice.

 

[realkingcobra]

thanks everyone providing pictures from their tables, so we could test our approach of measuring pocket opening from a cell phone picture.

View attachment 626180

Height of the cushion is 37 mm while middle of the pool ball is 28.5 mm, so the ball is 0.85 cm further away and is smaller in the picture. The further away from the table the picture is made, the less the inacuracy of our measurement.

A person of my height would probably make a picture from a distance of 25 - 40 cm. The exact distance of cell phone from Jayson' picture could be calculated.

The mistake in our measurement is
-3.3% for cell phone distance of 25 cm (making pocket opening 5.08'')
-2.8% from a distance of 30 cm (pocket opening 5.103'')
-2.1% from a distance of 40 cm (pocket opening 5.13")

So the pocket appears always bigger then the 4.95'' provided by Lou but less then 5 1/4 ''. It's probably just under 5 1/8'' so it seems the Legends just made sure it's the loosest table possible that somehow would still get approval by BCA.

"Probably" is still guessing, and is not fact based.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Here is the follow up for my GCC4 table from yesterday, showing the actual measurements. How close did the computer simulation get?

5 1/16" if the ruler is held to about the middle of the radius.

Closeup of left radius of 5 1/16" measurement.

Closeup of right radius of 5 1/16" measurement.

Here I put the ruler further out on the radius. Closeup left side.

This is the right side for the further out point on the radius. This results in a 5 1/8" measurement.

Throat is 4 1/8". This is not on the line where the cushion meets the rail though. It is rather where the cloth ends. If you extended that line to the theoretical intersection, it would be smaller.

Closeup of throat.

Angle measurement. The pocket face has two angles due to wear and/or maybe too tight cloth stretching, and/or cushion cutting inaccuracy.

I lined up by eye the head of the protractor to the straight part of the facing towards the back of the pocket.

This resulted in a 143 degree angle.

Continued next post, picture limit reached.

 

[kanzzo]

"Probably" is still guessing, and is not fact based.

I can work only with the data available to me. But as was correctly mentioned, it's not on me to decide wether this record gets approved.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Yes, it does show a value close to 5. However we seem to be splitting hairs anyway so why be so definitive based on a sticker placement.

My point still remains

What would be interesting once this video is hopefully released (it won’t be me) is for someone to take the time to edit and splice and show all the shots that wouldn’t have fallen on Diamond tour cut 4-1/2 inch pockets, but did fall on these pockets.

Taking nothing away from Jayson, who was taking full advantage of these generous pockets, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not, but it would just be interesting. My hunch is it might be as high as one shot every 1-2 racks, 25-50 shots total.

 

[realkingcobra]

Not sure, you would have to ask Bobby about that.

Don't have to, he's already been denied, so how does that effect the intent of this high run competition if the past world record holder that Jayson passed up with his 714 run, has no chance to break Jayson's record on the same table?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Continued from above post.

Here I put the protractor head as close as parallel to the front part of the pocket.

That resulted in a 148.5 deg angle.

Here is the right side of the pocket (as viewing picture). I tried a different approach here. I laid a ruler over the facing, getting it parallel with the rear part of the pocket facing. Then held the protractor head parallel to the ruler.

That resulted in a 143 deg measurement on right facing, same as the left facing.

Here is how the ruler was held. You can see its tight to the back of the facing, and a gap is in the front of the facing, where it is curved in that area.


That's it. So how close were the computer measurements?

 

[Shuddy]

this is the ball I meant:

it's way too easy, if every ball is frozen

Shaw actually played the same shot on day 1.

 

[Shuddy]

you are mostly right.

But a small "but":
if you are jogging for your pleasure around the block, nobody cares how you do it. If you beat the world record in 100m run, expect some doping testing and some closer look at how you did it.

He did the same questioning for the record of John Schmidt, so I consider it fair. (And there was a promise of free uploading of the full run later the day, where he later decided differently).

But I agree that overall this is a great challenge and it's good for the sport. And as long as every new player stays under 5 1/8'' for corner pockets for his high run attemts, I am ok with it.

I have a little problem with a perma rack, since there is no need for a breakball anymore if all the balls are frozen. So the rules have to be changed some here. I ordered the Perma-Rack and will make a video, what I mean. But basically i can call and make the corner ball from the rack probably about 8 out of 10, perhaps even more. But this is probably another thread

Right, but if a bunch of bored dudes with their laptops showed up to drug test me, I’d call the police

 

[rjb1168]

Don't have to, he's already been denied, so how does that effect the intent of this high run competition if the past world record holder that Jayson passed up with his 714 run, has no chance to break Jayson's record on the same table?

I take it they just don't like one another.

 

[Shuddy]

You're making good posts but becoming a bit dramatic. Bobby found a way to drag himself through plenty of posts about John. I think he could have mustered the energy to tell Lou he could post the pics and specs of the pockets. I know the sentence would have taken a lot out of him, but I think he could have managed.

RKC is the only person on AZ that has been over the top here, and there's really no excuse for letting him get under your skin if you've been on AZ for more than say -- one of his threads.

I’m just trying to look at it from the Legends perspective. I haven’t seen his shit talking re. Schmidt etc. Plenty of people have mentioned it, so I’m sure it’s out there. But once he started this endeavor, I don’t think his mind would have been too focused on that anymore. Rather, he was focusing his time and resources on getting this event up and running, an event that we’ve been able to enjoy from the comfort of our homes. So when a bunch of dudes, and not just RKC, start calling him some pretty nasty things, he probably wasn’t focusing on the idea that he was getting his comeuppance. He was probably thinking something like, “Screw those clowns. I put in all this work and provided hours of free entertainment, including giving some 900 people the chance to watch a potential world record live, and this is how they talk about me.”

I’m not saying that’s correct, right, etc, just that I would understand that thought process and how would encourage him NOT to share any more details, but simply proceed with the BCA.

 

[realkingcobra]

Continued from above post.


View attachment 626203
Here I put the protractor head as close as parallel to the front part of the pocket.


View attachment 626204
That resulted in a 148.5 deg angle.


View attachment 626205
Here is the right side of the pocket (as viewing picture). I tried a different approach here. I laid a ruler over the facing, getting it parallel with the rear part of the pocket facing. Then held the protractor head parallel to the ruler.


View attachment 626206
That resulted in a 143 deg measurement on right facing, same as the left facing.


View attachment 626207
Here is how the ruler was held. You can see its tight to the back of the facing, and a gap is in the front of the facing, where it is curved in that area.


That's it. So how close were the computer measurements?

So now I'll give you a little bit of information on how to correctly read those miter angles. When the cloth is off the rails, then you have a more accurate measurement if the miter angles because there's no distortion of the end of the facings bending outward due to how tight the cloth, and in which direction the cloth has been pulled. Your metal ruler sits above the nose of the cushion on one side, while reading from the contact point on the other side. If you use the adjustable protractor like I said, you'd get a more accurate measurement by being able to see the exact contact point on both points of the pocket at the same time.

 

[realkingcobra]

Continued from above post.


View attachment 626203
Here I put the protractor head as close as parallel to the front part of the pocket.


View attachment 626204
That resulted in a 148.5 deg angle.


View attachment 626205
Here is the right side of the pocket (as viewing picture). I tried a different approach here. I laid a ruler over the facing, getting it parallel with the rear part of the pocket facing. Then held the protractor head parallel to the ruler.


View attachment 626206
That resulted in a 143 deg measurement on right facing, same as the left facing.


View attachment 626207
Here is how the ruler was held. You can see its tight to the back of the facing, and a gap is in the front of the facing, where it is curved in that area.


That's it. So how close were the computer measurements?

Then, instead of trying to read the miter angle with a compase that is to short to actually see the whole miter angle, you need to use the angle finder i showed you because you need to be able to read the miter angle from the back of the pocket outward, then you can see where the facing is the straighest, and where it starts to curve outward from the cloth tension, that's the distortion of the pocket miter angle.

 

[The_JV]

Also bear in mind that when viewing the miter from directly above, even without cloth, the point will seem to flare. However this is just a result of the downward angle of the miter combined with the profile of the cushion.

So two pockets with the same measured width at the top of the rail and miter angles, can have varying 'flare' if the downward angles are different

 

[Johnny Rosato]

Why in the hell were calipers used to start with?
I know maybe 5 people that could lay hands on a set of calipers if asked, yet most everybody I know,
including the litle old lady next door has a measuring tape or ruler handy.
And the little old lady next door could teach a monkey to manipulate the calipers in about 5 minutes. Funny shit!
(and I don't want any monkey shit about using a monkey as an example)

 

[realkingcobra]

Continued from above post.


View attachment 626203
Here I put the protractor head as close as parallel to the front part of the pocket.


View attachment 626204
That resulted in a 148.5 deg angle.


View attachment 626205
Here is the right side of the pocket (as viewing picture). I tried a different approach here. I laid a ruler over the facing, getting it parallel with the rear part of the pocket facing. Then held the protractor head parallel to the ruler.


View attachment 626206
That resulted in a 143 deg measurement on right facing, same as the left facing.


View attachment 626207
Here is how the ruler was held. You can see its tight to the back of the facing, and a gap is in the front of the facing, where it is curved in that area.


That's it. So how close were the computer measurements?

So then you can determine what the pocket mouth opening was designed to be, and what it actually is by way of distortion. So here's the problem EVERYONE is missing when they used the computer generated miter lines trying to figure out the miter angles and pocket opening, those LINES are STRAIGHT and do NOT reflect the distortion of the pocket openings because they can NOT measure on a curve, which is what happens when the pocket facings are pulled to tight with the cloth. And for all you experts, 99% of you won't get this answer right!

If you have 5" corner pockets, and you want to reduce them to 4 1/2" could you do that by adding a 1/4" extention to both sides of the pocket? What would the pocket opening end up being???

 

[7stud]

Summary amidst accusations of Legends now being less transparent than the 626:

And he made that happen, all the while trying to be as transparent as possible except for letting you see his bank account.

Bobby must post his federal tax returns, otherwise the whole thing was illegitimate.

 

[The_JV]

If you have 5" corner pockets, and you want to reduce them to 4 1/2" could you do that by adding a 1/4" extention to both sides of the pocket? What would the pocket opening end up being???

What's the miter angle...?

 

[Matt_24]

Some of you must be really fun at parties. Wow. Who cares about the pocket sizes? The man ran 700+ balls in 5 days of trying. That is amazing. Quit being haters. Quit being weird. Enjoy life.

 

[Icon of Sin]

When did this thread deviate from the high run and become furniture repair?