Statement from The Legends of Pocket Billiards

[kanzzo]

thanks everyone providing pictures from their tables, so we could test our approach of measuring pocket opening from a cell phone picture.

Height of the cushion is 37 mm while middle of the pool ball is 28.5 mm, so the ball is 0.85 cm further away and is smaller in the picture. The further away from the table the picture is made, the less the inacuracy of our measurement.

A person of my height would probably make a picture from a distance of 25 - 40 cm. The exact distance of cell phone from Jayson' picture could be calculated.

The mistake in our measurement is
-3.3% for cell phone distance of 25 cm (making pocket opening 5.08'')
-2.8% from a distance of 30 cm (pocket opening 5.103'')
-2.1% from a distance of 40 cm (pocket opening 5.13")

So the pocket appears always bigger then the 4.95'' provided by Lou but less then 5 1/4 ''. It's probably just under 5 1/8'' so it seems the Legends just made sure it's the loosest table possible that somehow would still get approval by BCA.

 

[rjb1168]

Does that mean John can have a crack at that 714 on the SAME table Jayson played on?

Not sure, you would have to ask Bobby about that.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I think that would only make a difference of maybe 1/16” in the mouth width, even less if the facingle angles are wide. I don’t see much of an issue there.

pj
chgo

The issue is WHY would you be be holding the caliper at that point? They know exactly where they SHOULD be holding it for an accurate measurement - it’s not hard to figure out.

If you feel like you need to measure the pocket mouth and post the photo for all to see to provide proof to those who are interested that your table is legitimate, you either do it right or you don’t do it at all.

Cheat it a little on one side, the same on the other side, it adds up to an intentionally inaccurate measurement in an attempt to deceive us in to believing the pockets appear tighter than they truly are - why?

 

[Shuddy]

I respect the fact that you own your words.

RKC did not use his table mechanic skills and savant like ability to point out the pockets were a bit bigger than normal and educate us Plebs to it. What he did do was create a massive negative shit storm and sucked many into it...myself included for a few posts. I admit I was not my best self for a few posts! >>lol- Depends He has been unpleasant and relentless telling us the obvious- the pockets are friendly and he thinks all of this sucks.

The concept of friendlier pockets for the record runs was made clear from the start. Anyone who has played on more than a few pool tables in their life could see it instantly in pictures and video too.

After seeing how Jayson Shaw played and got his 14.1 tightened up over time I think he could put up a circus number on a regular Diamond or Gold Crown. Some of the other champs too. 714+ on that challenge table or another again? I do not know...that was a very determined talented guy who dug deep and had a magic moment. I would love to see him or another do it!

How Lou and Bobby have handled this was their choice to make. This challenge has been great fun to watch live and I will be ready for the next player.

Summary amidst accusations of Legends now being less transparent than the 626:

• Legends posts photo of pocket with digital calipers before event starts
• Legends reveals there is financial incentive for 526 and 626, privately funded by Bobby, but that he prefers the numbers be kept private
• SVB plays, every second streamed
• No one really says anything, some people suggest the table plays easy, but of course it does, 5” maybe a touch over
• Ruslan plays, every second streamed
• No one says much except for how beautifully Ruslan plays 14.1
• Earl plays, spends most of his time bitching about the table
• No one says anything except about how shit a 60 year old Earl plays 14.1 while he runs multiple hundreds and more
• Shaw plays, knocks in ridiculous amounts of balls, culminating in 714
• Suddenly the Spanish inquisition turns up suggesting the digital calipers were zero’d incorrectly, the pockets are parallel, online algorithms show the pockets to be 5 1/4”, all based on a few screen grabs from streams and camera photos from various angles
• After accusing Bobby of cheating, lying, and doing this whole thing just to spite Schmidt, everyone now wonders why Bobby won’t give any more information about the table
• People post photos of their own tables showing that the online algorithms can be seriously off, and that the slightest of camera angles messes everything
• End result of this nonsense, no one is closer to knowing the table specs, and the most accurate info we have is the original photo Bobby gave us
• People continue to call Bobby a liar, cheat, and generally bitter and spiteful man, all the time wondering why he won’t entertain their requests for more info on the table

Well then, seems about right.

EDIT: Oh. and al this after he’s provided us with hours and hours of free entertainment in the form of the best players in the world running racks.

I mean, seriously, put yourself in his shoes for a second. He provides a photo of the pockets with calipers. Ok, maybe they’re a little too far in from the mouth, like millimeters. Maybe they aren’t 4.98”. Maybe they’re 5 1/8”. He provides this stream to us for free. He does this by offering money out of his own pocket to get the best players in the world to come and play. Regardless of his motivation, he essentially paid out of his own pocket for us to watch a shit load of free straight pool runs. And even if his only reason was to piss off Schmidt, the end result is that more people are talking about 14.1 than they have been since I started playing pool 8-9 years ago, and we potentially have a new world record. And he made that happen, all the while trying to be as transparent as possible except for letting you see his bank account.

Then a bunch of people start calling him a liar, a crook, deceptive, and spiteful.

If it were me, I’d tell you all to fuck off and put anything more of this event behind a pay wall.

 

[BasementDweller]

Summary amidst accusations of Legends now being less transparent than the 626:

• Legends posts photo of pocket with digital calipers before event starts
• Legends reveals there is financial incentive for 526 and 626, privately funded by Bobby, but that he prefers the numbers be kept private
• SVB plays, every second streamed
• No one really says anything, some people suggest the table plays easy, but of course it does, 5” maybe a touch over
• Ruslan plays, every second streamed
• No one says much except for how beautifully Ruslan plays 14.1
• Earl plays, spends most of his time bitching about the table
• No one says anything except about how shit a 60 year old Earl plays 14.1 while he runs multiple hundreds and more
• Shaw plays, knocks in ridiculous amounts of balls, culminating in 714
• Suddenly the Spanish inquisition turns up suggesting the digital calipers were zero’d incorrectly, the pockets are parallel, online algorithms show the pockets to be 5 1/4”, all based on a few screen grabs from streams and camera photos from various angles
• After accusing Bobby of cheating, lying, and doing this whole thing just to spite Schmidt, everyone now wonders why Bobby won’t give any more information about the table
• People post photos of their own tables showing that the online algorithms can be seriously off, and that the slightest of camera angles messes everything
• End result of this nonsense, no one is closer to knowing the table specs, and the most accurate info we have is the original photo Bobby gave us
• People continue to call Bobby a liar, cheat, and generally bitter and spiteful man, all the time wondering why he won’t entertain their requests for more info on the table

Well then, seems about right.

That's pretty close but you failed to mention that we fans "don't have a right to the pocket specifications." Of course, this is true, we don't have a legal right to know. This whole thing has become -- not quite a full circus, but at least a side-show, and there really was no good reason they couldn't release the specs. So this side-show is of their own doing. More specifically Bobby's doing as Lou mentioned it was Bobby who didn't want the info released. Now, you can say - well RKC and a few others were big fat meanie heads so we aren't going to release the info. Or they could put a ever-so-slightly better PR spin on that message -- but that's still what most of us are going to hear. Or they will talk out of both sides of their mouth and say something like: "This event had nothing to do with John Schmidt" & "Well did John Schmidt release his pocket specs?"

It's all so strange.

 

[Maxx]

AZ has the aiming forum, maybe we need the pocket size forum.

 

[BasementDweller]

If I had to guess at this point...

Bobby got the pocket specs from the BCA and set his table up the same or very close to the same as John's, although of course this event had nothing to do with John. So nothing nefarious going on, but now he just chooses to thumb his nose at everyone in the same fashion that he does over all the different high run claims that he gives credence to.

 

[logical]

...blah blah blah....

If it were me, I’d tell you all to fuck off and put anything more of this event behind a pay wall.

That's all well and good right up to the point that you want to claim a new record has been set.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Shuddy]

That's all well and good right up to the point that you want to claim a new record has been set.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Except we’re not the arbiters of that.

 

[The_JV]

AZ has the aiming forum, maybe we need the pocket size forum.

It's like pulling teeth at times but there is the 'Ask a Mechanic' sub fourm

 

[The_JV]

Summary amidst accusations of Legends now being less transparent than the 626:

• Suddenly the Spanish inquisition turns up suggesting the digital calipers were zero’d incorrectly,

Just for sake of clarity. I have pointed out that most digital calipers can be zero'd. However that wasn't in effort to poo poo on Bobby, Lou, or the event as a whole. Just that people need to stop fixating on this caliper pic. It's just as likely for the pocket to be smaller than pictured as it is to be bigger.

A shout out the Legends of Pocket Billiards group for all your efforts thus far.

 

[Shuddy]

Just for sake of clarity. I have pointed out that most digital calipers can be zero'd. However that wasn't in effort to poo poo on Bobby, Lou, or the event as a whole. Just that people need to stop fixating on this caliper pic. It's just as likely for the pocket to be smaller than pictured as it is to be bigger.

A shout out the Legends of Pocket Billiards group for all your efforts thus far.

Yeah, all good. I probably didn’t spell out my conclusion very well, which was:

People are saying if he was being legit, he would just post the specs. But if we assume he is legit, he’s less likely to respond to the kind of accusations being made in here than if he weren’t legit. That is, after all the work and money he put in to make this happen, I can understand why he’d just stick to dealing with the BCA rather than drag himself through this cesspit.

 

[kanzzo]

Summary amidst accusations of Legends now being less transparent than the 626:

• Legends posts photo of pocket with digital calipers before event starts
• Legends reveals there is financial incentive for 526 and 626, privately funded by Bobby, but that he prefers the numbers be kept private
• SVB plays, every second streamed
• No one really says anything, some people suggest the table plays easy, but of course it does, 5” maybe a touch over
• Ruslan plays, every second streamed
• No one says much except for how beautifully Ruslan plays 14.1
• Earl plays, spends most of his time bitching about the table
• No one says anything except about how shit a 60 year old Earl plays 14.1 while he runs multiple hundreds and more
• Shaw plays, knocks in ridiculous amounts of balls, culminating in 714
• Suddenly the Spanish inquisition turns up suggesting the digital calipers were zero’d incorrectly, the pockets are parallel, online algorithms show the pockets to be 5 1/4”, all based on a few screen grabs from streams and camera photos from various angles
• After accusing Bobby of cheating, lying, and doing this whole thing just to spite Schmidt, everyone now wonders why Bobby won’t give any more information about the table
• People post photos of their own tables showing that the online algorithms can be seriously off, and that the slightest of camera angles messes everything
• End result of this nonsense, no one is closer to knowing the table specs, and the most accurate info we have is the original photo Bobby gave us
• People continue to call Bobby a liar, cheat, and generally bitter and spiteful man, all the time wondering why he won’t entertain their requests for more info on the table

Well then, seems about right.

EDIT: Oh. and al this after he’s provided us with hours and hours of free entertainment in the form of the best players in the world running racks.

I mean, seriously, put yourself in his shoes for a second. He provides a photo of the pockets with calipers. Ok, maybe they’re a little too far in from the mouth, like millimeters. Maybe they aren’t 4.98”. Maybe they’re 5 1/8”. He provides this stream to us for free. He does this by offering money out of his own pocket to get the best players in the world to come and play. Regardless of his motivation, he essentially paid out of his own pocket for us to watch a shit load of free straight pool runs. And even if his only reason was to piss off Schmidt, the end result is that more people are talking about 14.1 than they have been since I started playing pool 8-9 years ago, and we potentially have a new world record. And he made that happen, all the while trying to be as transparent as possible except for letting you see his bank account.

Then a bunch of people start calling him a liar, a crook, deceptive, and spiteful.

If it were me, I’d tell you all to fuck off and put anything more of this event behind a pay wall.

you are mostly right.

But a small "but":
if you are jogging for your pleasure around the block, nobody cares how you do it. If you beat the world record in 100m run, expect some doping testing and some closer look at how you did it.

He did the same questioning for the record of John Schmidt, so I consider it fair. (And there was a promise of free uploading of the full run later the day, where he later decided differently).

But I agree that overall this is a great challenge and it's good for the sport. And as long as every new player stays under 5 1/8'' for corner pockets for his high run attemts, I am ok with it.

I have a little problem with a perma rack, since there is no need for a breakball anymore if all the balls are frozen. So the rules have to be changed some here. I ordered the Perma-Rack and will make a video, what I mean. But basically i can call and make the corner ball from the rack probably about 8 out of 10, perhaps even more. But this is probably another thread.

 

[kling&allen]

Just for sake of clarity. I have pointed out that most digital calipers can be zero'd. However that wasn't in effort to poo poo on Bobby, Lou, or the event as a whole. Just that people need to stop fixating on this caliper pic. It's just as likely for the pocket to be smaller than pictured as it is to be bigger.

A shout out the Legends of Pocket Billiards group for all your efforts thus far.

Not to retread any of these issues, but the caliper in that photo has a printed scale that shows 5" even if the digital readout was improperly zeroed.
My only point being that none of these photos tell us much of anything and I, personally, defer to SVB, Earl, and Shaw as to whether the table was properly setup. Earl complains about everything, and scratched a lot during his runs, but didn't make a peep about pocket size or facing angles.
I also think any of the top pros would break 526 if they tried hard enough and Bobby wouldn't need to create some vast conspiracy to break the record. I think Shaw could run 1000 if he was motivated.

But these side shows are fun and why AZB exists. Maybe when the 714 video is released someone with a comparable GC can try to recreate some of the shots Shaw rattled in.

 

[BasementDweller]

Yeah, all good. I probably didn’t spell out my conclusion very well, which was:

People are saying if he was being legit, he would just post the specs. But if we assume he is legit, he’s less likely to respond to the kind of accusations being made in here than if he weren’t legit. That is, after all the work and money he put in to make this happen, I can understand why he’d just stick to dealing with the BCA rather than drag himself through this cesspit.

You're making good posts but becoming a bit dramatic. Bobby found a way to drag himself through plenty of posts about John. I think he could have mustered the energy to tell Lou he could post the pics and specs of the pockets. I know the sentence would have taken a lot out of him, but I think he could have managed.

RKC is the only person on AZ that has been over the top here, and there's really no excuse for letting him get under your skin if you've been on AZ for more than say -- one of his threads.

 

[The_JV]

I have a little problem with a perma rack, since there is no need for a breakball anymore if all the balls are frozen. So the rules have to be changed some here. I ordered the Perma-Rack and will make a video, what I mean. But basically i can call and make the corner ball from the rack probably about 8 out of 10, perhaps even more. But this is probably another thread.

This is a far more interesting discussion....

I'm 'pro' template, but don't like the idea of not needing a break ball. I'd bend as far to say that playing a dead ball in a fresh template rack is fine if you reached the required CB/OB contact point by way of carom off the break ball.

 

[kanzzo]

I have a little problem with a perma rack, since there is no need for a breakball anymore if all the balls are frozen. So the rules have to be changed some here. I ordered the Perma-Rack and will make a video, what I mean. But basically i can call and make the corner ball from the rack probably about 8 out of 10, perhaps even more. But this is probably another thread.

this is the ball I meant:

it's way too easy, if every ball is frozen

 

[ChrisinNC]

you are mostly right.

But a small "but":
if you are jogging for your pleasure around the block, nobody cares how you do it. If you beat the world record in 100m run, expect some doping testing and some closer look at how you did it.

He did the same questioning for the record of John Schmidt, so I consider it fair. (And there was a promise of free uploading of the full run later the day, where he later decided differently).

But I agree that overall this is a great challenge and it's good for the sport. And as long as every new player stays under 5 1/8'' for corner pockets for his high run attemts, I am ok with it.

I have a little problem with a perma rack, since there is no need for a breakball anymore if all the balls are frozen. So the rules have to be changed some here. I ordered the Perma-Rack and will make a video, what I mean. But basically i can call and make the corner ball from the rack probably about 8 out of 10, perhaps even more. But this is probably another thread.

Those of us that know 14.1 and the racking issues - the issues regarding getting the balls all perfectly frozen and how that can help the break spread, but maybe just as important, the thickness of a ball rack, and how that can allow a potential break ball to remain just inside/outside the rack, depending on the thickness of the rack you are using.

Yes, this Perma-rack does offer some obvious advantages on both those issues, but I don’t see a problem with that. Anyone smart enough to utilize that technology should be able to do so.

In some ways, the Perma-rack makes racking the balls more legitimate, as you can’t cheat as to where the balls are placed in the donut holes. By comparison, if you are using a standard wooden rack or a template, you could easily adjust the template/rack a little high or low to your advantage, if you had a break ball sitting extremely close to the rack.

It makes the difference between having a good break shot and having virtually no break shot, if you have to place that last ball down on the head spot.

 

[The_JV]

Not to retread any of these issues, but the caliper in that photo has a printed scale that shows 5" even if the digital readout was improperly zeroed.

Yes, it does show a value close to 5. However we seem to be splitting hairs anyway so why be so definitive based on a sticker placement.

My point still remains

 

[realkingcobra]

I think that would only make a difference of maybe 1/16” in the mouth width, even less if the facingle angles are wide. I don’t see much of an issue there.

pj
chgo

Keep in mind, the balls don't touch where the calipers are being set to measure the pocket, the ball contact is well below that point, making the actual pocket wider than the measurement of the pocket.