Joint Pins - What and why

[Kim Bye]

So, why do some cue makers not use them?

If they only cost a few hundred dollars a cue maker could always ensure that their shaft and joint collars match up.

My guess would be cost as the main issue. Factor in how many pins are out there and how much variation there is in joint collar diameter, it would get expensive really quick. Since I do lots of repairs and make shafts to fit the customers cues. I have Two sets of Carbide sanding mandrels in Radial, 3/8-10M and Uni-Loc, in addition I have a set in 5/16-14 and 5/16-18. All at a final size of .840" That's a few thousand bucks in mandrels right there, not counting maintenance mandrels..
If I have to match a joint diameter outside of what I have, I machine a ring in steel to whatever diameter the customers cue is, I have a drawer full of steel rings in all kinds of diameters and threads.

 

[tomatoshooter]

The angles of the thread will exert more radial force on the wood threads and the shaft.

That's a good point. Allegedly they were inspired by bone screws but screwing together living bone is different than dead tree.

I honestly don't think it makes much difference as far as playing goes. I have had durability issues but my other cues have brass inserts so I cant say if it was specifically the radial pin or the fact that it is threaded directly into the wood. They look kind of cool but I wish I had gone for a different joint pin.

Proven time and again: NO

You may be able to tell a compression fit joint over a sloppy piloted setup, but quality machining is the primary driver.

I tried the classic blind joint test with 3 house cue conversions with identical production shafts, and taped over and joint areas. Wrote 1/2/3 on each cue. 3 different joint setups (3/8-10 ivory, radial wood, 5/16-14 steel)

Only 1 person guessed correctly what any of the cues were. At least 50 tried them all.

Could people tell the difference but just not identify the joint? I suspect that would be more (all) about the ivory/wood/steel than about the pin type but that might not matter much either. I like how my wood joint radial pin cue hits but wish it balanced just a little further forward. I've got a new cue hopefully coming soon, we'll see how a 5/16 pin into brass and a purpleheart sneaky Pete butt compare to the maple plain Jane with the radial into wood.

 

[Sheldon]

So, why do some cue makers not use them?

If they only cost a few hundred dollars a cue maker could always ensure that their shaft and joint collars match up.

I never liked the idea of having to sand things down to size. The less sanding the better, as it is imprecise. Cut to within a thousandth or two, and very little sanding is required. I could see using mandrels for building shafts or butts separately, mostly for the finishing process, but like Barenbrugge said the cost could really add up.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I never liked the idea of having to sand things down to size. The less sanding the better, as it is imprecise. Cut to within a thousandth or two, and very little sanding is required. I could see using mandrels for building shafts or butts separately, mostly for the finishing process, but like Barenbrugge said the cost could really add up.

That is what I was thinking about.

When you order a shaft separately from the butt.

 

[Sheldon]

That is what I was thinking about.

When you order a shaft separately from the butt.

If I know the exact diameter it's not hard to cut it to the proper size so that finish brings it within a thousandth or so. I also trust my threads and pins to run true since they are cut and or installed at finish size. I'm sure most mandrels are fairly accurate, but they add one more variable and potential for deviation to the process. I would be putting a lot of faith in whoever made them.

 

[Hungarian]

What about Cognoscenti and other G-10 pins? There's no metal in the joint so the entire cue resonates. On a steel jointed cue or a cue with a steel pin after striking the cue ball, as the shock wave comes down the cue from the tip, the shock wave is reflected back up the shaft when it hits the steel. But with a G-10 pin the shock wave travels all the way down to the bottom of the cue?

 

[ideologist]

What about Cognoscenti and other G-10 pins? There's no metal in the joint so the entire cue resonates. On a steel jointed cue or a cue with a steel pin after striking the cue ball, as the shock wave comes down the cue from the tip, the shock wave is reflected back up the shaft when it hits the steel. But with a G-10 pin the shock wave travels all the way down to the bottom of the cue?

Lol

 

[ideologist]

That's a good point. Allegedly they were inspired by bone screws but screwing together living bone is different than dead tree.

I honestly don't think it makes much difference as far as playing goes. I have had durability issues but my other cues have brass inserts so I cant say if it was specifically the radial pin or the fact that it is threaded directly into the wood. They look kind of cool but I wish I had gone for a different joint pin.



Could people tell the difference but just not identify the joint? I suspect that would be more (all) about the ivory/wood/steel than about the pin type but that might not matter much either. I like how my wood joint radial pin cue hits but wish it balanced just a little further forward. I've got a new cue hopefully coming soon, we'll see how a 5/16 pin into brass and a purpleheart sneaky Pete butt compare to the maple plain Jane with the radial into wood.

People were just guessing wildly and had no clue. Some of them were quite proficient players and/or serious collectors. One guy realized a steel joint from the balance. Only a single time did someone identify the correct joint configuration (3/8-10 ivory). So that's something like 1/150 correct identifications.

 

[tomatoshooter]

People were just guessing wildly and had no clue. Some of them were quite proficient players and/or serious collectors. One guy realized a steel joint from the balance. Only a single time did someone identify the correct joint configuration (3/8-10 ivory). So that's something like 1/150 correct identifications.

So it's safe to say the difference is in the weight and balance. That makes sense. If a vibration is travelling down 29" of wood, assuming there's good contact at the joint, and then down another 29" of wood, a piece of steel or ivory isn't a factor. What could the steel do, transfer the the energy better for 1/2"? That vibration still has to travel through 57 1/2" of wood. You'd have to have a sloppy joint with some movement for different materials to have any real effect.

 

[whammo57]

if radial threads were so great........ nuts and bolts would use the in constructing machinery.............. think about it

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

If I know the exact diameter it's not hard to cut it to the proper size so that finish brings it within a thousandth or so. I also trust my threads and pins to run true since they are cut and or installed at finish size. I'm sure most mandrels are fairly accurate, but they add one more variable and potential for deviation to the process. I would be putting a lot of faith in whoever made them.

Been doing the same procedure for a lot of years. I did pick up a set of mandrels just for my wet sanding to finish size. If I didn't pay close attention I could on rare occasion blow thru at the joint during that process and create a whole vocabulary of new words.

 

[Hungarian]

What about Cognoscenti and other G-10 pins? There's no metal in the joint so the entire cue resonates. On a steel jointed cue or a cue with a steel pin after striking the cue ball, as the shock wave comes down the cue from the tip, the shock wave is reflected back up the shaft when it hits the steel. But with a G-10 pin the shock wave travels all the way down to the bottom of the cue?

I'm seriously asking about this and this thread brought this idea back to me. I've heard this from different people ever since I bought my Cog a long time ago. I'm curious how significant this impacts the feel of the hit and the playability of the cue? I can tell you the for lack of a better word, Cog's don't feel "whippy" at all. I wonder if that's because of the pin.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

I'm seriously asking about this and this thread brought this idea back to me. I've heard this from different people ever since I bought my Cog a long time ago. I'm curious how significant this impacts the feel of the hit and the playability of the cue? I can tell you the for lack of a better word, Cog's don't feel "whippy" at all. I wonder if that's because of the pin.

No....
Being whippy or not whippy has zero to do with the pin.

 

[Hungarian]

No....
Being whippy or not whippy has zero to do with the pin.

Okay, thanks. So there's nothing true about the shock wave reflecting back up the shaft when if reaches a metal joint and that that doesn't happen with a plastic pin with a wood to wood connection, therefore the cue resonates all the way down to the butt? Have you heard of this theory before? I'm sure I didn't just dream it up. This is what people have said to me numerous times, and that this was the reason Joe Gold started using G-10.

 

[cubswin]

I'm just a bad player who has owned a lot of cues. Joint pin is about the last thing I care about in a cue. The tip, the ferrule, the shaft taper, even the woods used in the butt are all more important to me. If a joint connects securely then I think it matters very little.

 

[tomatoshooter]

if radial threads were so great........ nuts and bolts would use the in constructing machinery.............. think about it

Not necessarily. It stands to reason that if the male and female threads are formed in the same material a symmetrical thread section would be preferable, there's not much to gain by having female threads stronger than the male threads as the strength would be limiter to that of te weaker thread. I'm sure there is some application where having a weaker thread act as a "fuse" is an advantage.

Since shaft and joint pin are of dissimilar materials there could be an advantage to a thread profile that has more wood and less steel, both through equalizing the strength available on both sides or if there is a manufacturing advantage I don't personally believe the radial pin accomplishes this, the 3/8-10 modified with the flat bottom thread seems to be an example.

Realistically, I don't think joint pins are loaded heavily enough to make these sorts of things necessary.

 

[boogieman]

Okay, thanks. So there's nothing true about the shock wave reflecting back up the shaft when if reaches a metal joint and that that doesn't happen with a plastic pin with a wood to wood connection, therefore the cue resonates all the way down to the butt? Have you heard of this theory before? I'm sure I didn't just dream it up. This is what people have said to me numerous times, and that this was the reason Joe Gold started using G-10.

I'm not a cue maker. I recently got a Shmelke purple heart break cue and had a G10 pin installed just to try it. I heard about the "vibration" thing. I think it's purely marketing BS. If anything I find the G10 annoying because you have to really crank it down to get it to feel like a one piece cue. To me, it almost feels like it makes the cue feel like it has shock absorbers in the pin. It may be a fit and finish issue since it's a relatively cheap cue, but I'm not entirely sold on the playing characteristics of G10. I know my playing cue with the new style (modified?) 3/8 10 feels much more like a solid piece of lumber than the G10 break cue does. This could also be something to do with how a purple heart shaft plays, I don't have the experience to say for sure but it feels more muted than say maple or ash.

 

[ideologist]

I'm seriously asking about this and this thread brought this idea back to me. I've heard this from different people ever since I bought my Cog a long time ago. I'm curious how significant this impacts the feel of the hit and the playability of the cue? I can tell you the for lack of a better word, Cog's don't feel "whippy" at all. I wonder if that's because of the pin.

I seriously laughed. G10 or aluminum is imperceptible

 

[JoeyInCali]

G-10 joint screws have weigh close to a hard wood. Just some .3 oz. They also flex just like a hard wood.
Problem with them is they have zero added weight. Most cues need that weight in the middle for balance.
They are also abrasive. Wear out wood threads eventually.

 

[Hungarian]

I seriously laughed. G10 or aluminum is imperceptible

Glad to know I bring so much joy to your life!!