Statement from The Legends of Pocket Billiards

[kanzzo]

and then stopped reading once you got to some Tim guy that has nothing to do with pool

short version:

he became a World Champion for fun in Kickboxing never practicing it. He is an author. Who writes interesting stuff.

He found flawed illogical rules in their rules book and used it to his advantage. Winning World Championships.

 

[kanzzo]

yep, those shots have been around forever. i always felt slighted when someone tried that in matchplay, it is kind of disrespectful, but then again it's also a signal to improve your game. you just don't take the risk if your opponent will run a few racks from a failed attempt.

it's a risk reward calculation.

If I am an underdog to win the safety battle (say 40%).
If I will run more balls on average if I make the ball (say 40 to his 25) or 120 to his 50 on a pro level.
If I am a favorite to make the ball on Perma-Rack (say 75% or more)

Then I would definitely go for the shot in matchplay. (Even If my opponent will run a few racks from a failed attempt.)

It can be much closer:
opening shot in straight pool is a disadvantage. Say I lost the lag and have to break against Hohmann. I would take a much lower chance for trying to run out the game in the first inning...

 

[kanzzo]

...and pool would probably be more entertaining if the pocket dimensions on a given table were random. What's your point?

My point is:

With the existing rules Perma-Rack is bad for the game.

Go back to racking with a triangle or change the rules.

The rules are from a time, when there was no perfect rack possible. New equipment changes the game. Needs probably a change in rules (like was the case in 9 Ball).

 

[Shuddy]

My point is:

With the existing rules Perma-Rack is bad for the game.

Go back to racking with a triangle or change the rules.

The rules are from a time, when there was no perfect rack possible. New equipment changes the game. Needs probably a change in rules (like was the case in 9 Ball).

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. If it results in a dead ball 100% of the time, it can’t stay, or the rules need to adapt (your suggested change).

I wonder though, what would happen if someone actually ran 500 with every break shot being a dead ball from the pack? I mean, there’d be a few people that would argue it’s not against the rules, but I think the majority would say it was a joke and goes against the spirit of the game.

However, it kind of doesn’t help the basis of your argument that you played all but one of those shots without a template (which was incredibly impressive btw).

 

[kanzzo]

However, it kind of doesn’t help the basis of your argument that you played all but one of those shots without a template (which was incredibly impressive btw).

I take it as a compliment

you need to know how to play these balls, which balls have to be frozen, how english on frozen balls get transferred. You have to know how the balls are racked, how you rails reacts and all the banks knowledge. So it's some knowledge to play them. "Banking with a beard" (book and dvd) has a lot of this topics covered.

You probably noticed that I was able to adapt. If I missed first try, second was closer. If I missed first two, the third went in.

There are videos from Dr. Dave analyzing how to rack 9 ball for potting a 9 on the break. He would use toilet paper between balls on the magic rack or taped table to simulate gaps and test how they react.

It's a science. If you know, what to look for, these balls are high percentage. (But if the rack is the same every time, you don't have to look.) And anything over 60% would make me go for the shot in a match, if I am figuring I am break even or underdog to win the safety battle.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. If it results in a dead ball 100% of the time, it can’t stay, or the rules need to adapt (your suggested change).

thank you.

If all the balls are perfectly frozen to each other - this is what happens.

It goes against the spirit of the game even if it only happens once in a run of 500 putting 2 250 runs together, if you would have no shot otherwise.

But I will try to post a 100 with no break balls used. Still tough...

 

[Cameron Smith]

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. If it results in a dead ball 100% of the time, it can’t stay, or the rules need to adapt (your suggested change).

I wonder though, what would happen if someone actually ran 500 with every break shot being a dead ball from the pack? I mean, there’d be a few people that would argue it’s not against the rules, but I think the majority would say it was a joke and goes against the spirit of the game.

However, it kind of doesn’t help the basis of your argument that you played all but one of those shots without a template (which was incredibly impressive btw).

I too would argue it’s against the spirit of the rules. But I would need to see some evidence that it is consistent enough to be concerned about. I’ll call that corner ball myself when I’ve got nothing else, but I’m only getting it go during my runs about 3-5 times out of 10. I’m sure I could do it more frequently if I was setting the cue ball by hand. But you are always going to play for the break shot because it’s more consistent than the corner ball.

 

[kanzzo]

I too would argue it’s against the spirit of the rules. But I would need to see some evidence that it is consistent enough to be concerned about. I’ll call that corner ball myself when I’ve got nothing else, but I’m only getting it go during my runs about 3-5 times out of 10. I’m sure I could do it more frequently if I was setting the cue ball by hand. But you are always going to play for the break shot because it’s more consistent than the corner ball.

i could play a two way shot like in the example of Jayson. If I get perfect on a break ball, I take it. If I miss position and am perfect on corner ball, take this one...

 

[realkingcobra]

It's so easy to wind you up that it isn't even fun anymore. You are the only one taking this entire discussion seriously.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Got YOU to respond didn't I? You can't help yourself, you have to respond!

 

[realkingcobra]

I too would argue it’s against the spirit of the rules. But I would need to see some evidence that it is consistent enough to be concerned about. I’ll call that corner ball myself when I’ve got nothing else, but I’m only getting it go during my runs about 3-5 times out of 10. I’m sure I could do it more frequently if I was setting the cue ball by hand. But you are always going to play for the break shot because it’s more consistent than the corner ball.

No one would attempt that shot in a match against another player, equally capable of running balls!

 

[realkingcobra]

I too would argue it’s against the spirit of the rules. But I would need to see some evidence that it is consistent enough to be concerned about. I’ll call that corner ball myself when I’ve got nothing else, but I’m only getting it go during my runs about 3-5 times out of 10. I’m sure I could do it more frequently if I was setting the cue ball by hand. But you are always going to play for the break shot because it’s more consistent than the corner ball.

Depending on the position of the cue ball, either corner ball can be banked off the rack up into the corner pockets, or from behind the rack, either corner ball can be banked cross side, bot those shots take some big BALLS to attempt them in a match as well.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Depending on the position of the cue ball, either corner ball can be banked off the rack up into the corner pockets, or from behind the rack, either corner ball can be banked cross side, bot those shots take some big BALLS to attempt them in a match as well.

Agreed, these shots only become an option when going for high runs. It’s easy to forget in this age of high run competitions that 14.1 is supposed to be a two player game and you would have to be fine with leaving your opponent an easy 14 balls to get going with.

 

[realkingcobra]

Agreed, these shots only become an option when going for high runs. It’s easy to forget in this age of high run competitions that 14.1 is supposed to be a two player game and you would have to be fine with leaving your opponent an easy 14 balls to get going with.

Or a 100 and out!

 

[wrldpro]

it's one time in three on triangle rack, its 9 out of 10 on Perma Rack

I just have one thing only here to correct. Jayson played the corner ball 7 times all week and only made it 1 time and that was the 1st time he shot at it. Please refrain from making things up. Also you mention my name several times and do not know any actual facts just speculation. I'm sure you love the game but before you speak know the facts. Just saying.

 

[kanzzo]

I just have one thing only here to correct. Jayson played the corner ball 7 times all week and only made it 1 time and that was the 1st time he shot at it. Please refrain from making things up. Also you mention my name several times and do not know any actual facts just speculation. I'm sure you love the game but before you speak know the facts. Just saying.

I try to be very accurate in what I write and not making things up.

No Idea what you mean. The quoted text was about the opening shot on a full rack of 15 balls where you call the 1 into the side pocket and I wrote that my data is just my personal experience. I will back it up with a video, once I get the Perma-Rack delievered.

Things I stated about you from my memory:

You are using Perma-Rack in the straight pool challenge
You making a secret out of table specifications
You said you would upload the video of the record run later that day
You stepping into the picture and asking the viewers "How you liked that?" after Jayson made corner ball from untouched rack
Quoting Schmidt that he'd feel sick to shoot a bank in a straight pool run.

Last one was the toughest to back up. I was lucky to find it this fast, where i did hear him say this.

So I apologize If I was "making something up" in my posts but I really have no Idea which post you mean.

 

[Shuddy]

I try to be very accurate in what I write and not making things up.

No Idea what you mean. The quoted text was about the opening shot on a full rack of 15 balls where you call the 1 into the side pocket and I wrote that my data is just my personal experience. I will back it up with a video, once I get the Perma-Rack delievered.

Things I stated about you from my memory:

You are using Perma-Rack in the straight pool challenge
You making a secret out of table specifications
You said you would upload the video of the record run later that day
You stepping into the picture and asking the viewers "How you liked that?" after Jayson made corner ball from untouched rack
Quoting Schmidt that he'd feel sick to shoot a bank in a straight pool run.

Last one was the toughest to back up. I was lucky to find it this fast, where i did heard him say this.

So I apologize If I was "making something up" in my posts but I really have no Idea which post you mean.

And to be fair, you weren’t actually criticizing Legends for using the PermaRack, just questioning how to use it going forward if it does create dead balls.

 

[kanzzo]

it probably needs the WPA a little longer to add this rule,

But Bobby could implement this rule for the 14.1 challenge starting tomorrow

(and AZ Billiards could add this rule for the Straight Pool Challenge)

I was asking Bobby to change the rules for his 14.1 challenge.

 

[gerryf]

I was asking Bobby to change the rules for his 14.1 challenge.

With the four players so far in the High Run event, there were about 29,000 shots played. Playing off an unopened rack doesn't seem to have been an issue so far.

 

[kanzzo]

With the four players so far in the High Run event, there were about 29,000 shots played. Playing off an unopened rack doesn't seem to have been an issue so far.

It's not a very big issue. You are right about this. But it's a good practice to think of good rules before it becomes an issue.

Strickland ended up quite a few times below the rack with no angle on his break shot. He just took the CB and started a new run. He either didn't know the shot to pocket corner ball one rail in the middle or felt like the run wouldn't (almost) count if he did it. So he didn't bother to try.

Bobby just wrote that Jayson had the corner ball coming up 7 times in his 6 days. The fact he didn't quite knew, how to make this ball every time doesn't mean Deuel or Filler won't know this ball. (The ball is easy, takes Filler approximately 28 minutes to figure out how to pocket it from every angle. But no data on this. Just an estimation based on how long it took me to figure this one out.)

and 29,000 shots means about 2000 racks. If we estimate the pro getting perfect position on a break shot 97% of the time it leaves 60 situations, where this shot could come up. 7 times Jayson went for it, 6-15 times Strickland could have go for it, no data for other players. But the percentage seems bigger looking at this from this perspective.

 

[BasementDweller]

I brought this potential issue up years ago in regards to the Sardo rack and Corey Deuel potentially cracking the code of the perfect rack. Ensure a perfect rack, and I'll ensure a player will figure it out eventually. The basic response I got back then was - well that's why we don't use a Sardo (now templates) for straight pool.

 

[The_JV]

Strickland ended up quite a few times below the rack with no angle on his break shot. He just took the CB and started a new run. He either didn't know the shot to pocket corner ball one rail in the middle or felt like the run wouldn't (almost) count if he did it. So he didn't bother to try.

Such a leap just to support your narrative.