Side bets in APA

[David in FL]

It's literally how mini-golf compares to PGA. Total farce. Bunch of dudes who think they are doing something spotting some newb 5 games to 2

They don't pay our 70 percent to players. If you ran a tournament like this, you'd be lynched.

So what?

The vast majority of the people who play league aren’t doing it to make money. For those that are, there are cash leagues. And league play is not tournament play. Don’t conflate the two.

I’m sorry, but your mini golf analogy is just silly. Mini golf is not golf in any way shape or form. Nobody thinks that it is. The golf I play at my local country club however may be exactly the same type of golf, played under the same rules, as they play on the PGA tour, but at a whole different level of competition. Or we can play various games that have different defined rules from that played on the PGA tour but are ”golf” nonetheless. That doesn’t make us second-class citizens in the golf world. Honestly, it makes us the vast majority. Just as every day bangers, and league players make up the vast majority of those who play, and yes pay, for pool.

 

[chefjeff]

There are many good business and marketing courses online.


Jeff Livingston

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

So what?

The vast majority of the people who play league aren’t doing it to make money. For those that are, there are cash leagues. And league play is not tournament play. Don’t conflate the two.

I’m sorry, but your mini golf analogy is just silly. Mini golf is not golf in any way shape or form. Nobody thinks that it is. The golf I play at my local country club however may be exactly the same type of golf, played under the same rules, as they play on the PGA tour, but at a whole different level of competition. Or we can play various games that have different defined rules from that played on the PGA tour but are ”golf” nonetheless. That doesn’t make us second-class citizens in the golf world. Honestly, it makes us the vast majority. Just as every day bangers, and league players make up the vast majority of those who play, and yes pay, for pool.

Well PGA has most Golf under their umbrella even with a minor league tour.

Most teaching Pro Golfer are PGA Certified. Even many of the PGA events start off with Pro Am.

Honestly my one experience with Pool league was disorganizes cluster F.

Use to do Tuesday, sometimes Sunday 9 ball tournament. Modest entry fee, if you won on goodbturn out maybe $140.00 split.

If you love your leagues, patches, trophies. Go for it.

Like I said today a trip to Las Vegas is no bargain, everything is big bucks. Friend flys in from Phoenix, because 20 bucks a day to park car is nuts at resorts. Bad enough the resort fee now, but extra to park auto.

 

[David in FL]

Well PGA has most Golf under their umbrella even with a minor league tour.

Most teaching Pro Golfer are PGA Certified. Even many of the PGA events start off with Pro Am.

Honestly my one experience with Pool league was disorganizes cluster F.

Use to do Tuesday, sometimes Sunday 9 ball tournament. Modest entry fee, if you won on goodbturn out maybe $140.00 split.

If you love your leagues, patches, trophies. Go for it.

Like I said today a trip to Las Vegas is no bargain, everything is big bucks. Friend flys in from Phoenix, because 20 bucks a day to park car is nuts at resorts. Bad enough the resort fee now, but extra to park auto.

As I said before, I don’t play APA, though I do enjoy some BCA masters cash league play. I’m genuinely amused by those who feel the need to bash the APA though.

Sorry, but like many, you’re also misinformed as to golf. There’s a vast difference between the PGA Tour, The PGA of America, and the USGA. They’re entirely different entities, each with a completely different mission and serving completely different purposes. There are also dozens, perhaps hundreds, of “minor league/mini” professional tours that host thousands of professional players who will never sniff membership on the PGA Tour, and thousands of amateur tours, tournaments, and leagues for the rest of us who simply enjoy a bit of competition outside of our normal circle of buddies. Golf, benefits from them all, even though every individual golfer may not. Kinda like pool…

You’re absolutely right about the cost of entertainment these days. Given that, I imagine that a lot of people find 10 bucks or so for a few hours of league participation to be a pretty good deal.

 

[chefjeff]

The problem with 'all under on roof' is when the roof collapses.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Poolplaya9]

The problem with 'all under on roof' is when the roof collapses.


Jeff Livingston

Another problem is when that roof sucks and it could be done so much better elsewhere, except that there is no elsewhere, that is the only choice that exists.

Do we want only one choice that may not even end up being what we really want, or do we want a number of choices which makes it significantly more likely that at least one of them will be very close to exactly what we want? Seems like a pretty obvious answer to me.

 

[realtor1618]

This post wasn’t directed at me but I wanted to put my perspective on it.

So you think cash is a dirty word in apa ?
-No. Its how they butter their bread and stay in business. It’s how much butter they need, to butter that bread, that I take issue with.

Do you realize they paid over a million dollars in payouts at last years nationals ?
-With revenues of over 54 million from the players, 1 million back to the players seems pitiful at best to me.

Do you realize that for the measly sum of 7.00 a week plus 25.00 yearly membership plus 20.00 fee for a qualifying tournament for a grand total investment 409.00 per year that you could win 15.000 first place in an 8 ball tournament ?
-League fees were actually 10$ a week where I played. When you figure in the costs associated with going to the tournament, (transportation, hotel stays, food etc..) it ends up being much more than a 409$ investment. With the odds of winning first place being very long, it doesn’t seem like a wise investment for the vast majority of people, me included.

A local apa 3 here won 7.500 for second place in 9 ball last year. As a 7/9, I am well aware that 3’s can be a very tough out sometimes.
There is more to apa than patches....which you seem to be hung up on.
-Correct. They provide a league for people of all skill levels to participate. They also give out trophies and put on a big tournament. However, some people don’t care about trophies and most members will never go to the tournament. There are over 250,000 members but the APA only expects about 9,400 of them to participate this year.


If people are alright with this kind of business model, more power to them. That’s their choice to make and are free to do so. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. Unless, I was one of the people that owned a franchise.

 

[lorider]

This post wasn’t directed at me but I wanted to put my perspective on it.

I guess i didnt explain it entirely. There is what they call travel assistance to go to nationals. I know the amount varies from one area to the other . some factors involved on the exact amount include league size and amount of fees paid. The amount usually covers the expenes incurred. I know it does in my area.

I have went one time for 9 ball teams. We had 3 rooms for the week and 6 round trip tickets paid out of our travel expense and recieved a couple hundred back. Also recieved 350.00 for the team upon signing up after we arrived.

Anorher thing i need to clarify based on your commemt about 3 's being tough . there are 4 skill level tiers being played. S/l 1-3 . s/l 4-5 . s/ l 6-7 and s/l 8-9. You only play people in your skill level tier. First place for each tier is 10.000 and they pay all the way to last place. A total of 225.000 was paid out for 9 ball singles.

Same setup for 8 ball singles with 15.000 for first place in each tier and a total of 400.000 was paid out. . then you had wheel chair and junior and doubles tournaments.

This is held in the spring. Then you have team nationals in the summer . not sure what the total payout is for that tournament. But 8 ball teams paid out 30.000 for first place and again they pay all the way to last place.

Same goes for 9 ball teams but i think first place is 25.000. Then you have masters teams. The million i stated was for the spring tournament. I cant seem to find what the total is for teams...which they now call world pool championships .

I know apa is not for every one but its hardly the evil monster that quite a few people insinuate it is.

 

[APA Operator]

-With revenues of over 54 million from the players, 1 million back to the players seems pitiful at best to me.

When you say it like that, it does sound pitiful, but you are misleading the reader. Intentionally I bet (how's that for tying it in with the title of the OP?). You quote a revenue number hoping the reader will interpret it as profit. But more importantly, you lead the reader to infer (incorrectly) that for every $54 they put in, $1 is paid back. But you make no mention of what is paid back locally.

I'll use my area as an example, and I'll use 2019 as the example year so I'm not using Covid-reduced numbers. In 2019, my revenue was $382,660. I paid my players in cash (not trophies and patches) $157,825. So in addition to that $1 from Corporate (closer to $3, but that's irrelevant) they got back $22.27 in cash from me. For every $54 they put in, they actually got about $25 back in cash.

Throw in the trophies, patches, and other non-monetary player benefits, and my members got back half my revenue. No secret about that, it's in my bylaws. From the other half, subtract expenses which includes my part of the $54 million APA makes in revenue. Even if I had a healthy 20% profit margin that gives me $76,532 in profit, or income. Don't forget that money gets taxed and that tax includes full SSA taxes, not half like the guy who has a boss. At the end of the month I have less than $5,000 to pay my mortgage, utilities, health insurance, and other stuff not included in my business expenses. And I have one of the larger franchises. Tell me again how we're all swimming in money?

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

Hey I gotta backtrack here… this is on the first page of APA website. It says right there it’s for fun.

*deleted*(another Wolfy rant!)

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

The vast majority of the people who play league aren’t doing it to make money. For those that are, there are cash leagues. And league play is not tournament play. Don’t conflate the two.

I’m sorry, but your mini golf analogy is just silly. Mini golf is not golf in any way shape or form. Nobody thinks that it is. The golf I play at my local country club however may be exactly the same type of golf, played under the same rules, as they play on the PGA tour, but at a whole different level of competition. Or we can play various games that have different defined rules from that played on the PGA tour but are ”golf” nonetheless. That doesn’t make us second-class citizens in the golf world. Honestly, it makes us the vast majority. Just as every day bangers, and league players make up the vast majority of those who play, and yes pay, for pool.

i haven’t met a golfer that doesn’t have a side bet going with whoever else is playing that day. Whether it be a beer or some $$$$. I have met mini golfers that don’t have a bet on the line though.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

When you say it like that, it does sound pitiful, but you are misleading the reader. Intentionally I bet (how's that for tying it in with the title of the OP?). You quote a revenue number hoping the reader will interpret it as profit. But more importantly, you lead the reader to infer (incorrectly) that for every $54 they put in, $1 is paid back. But you make no mention of what is paid back locally.

I'll use my area as an example, and I'll use 2019 as the example year so I'm not using Covid-reduced numbers. In 2019, my revenue was $382,660. I paid my players in cash (not trophies and patches) $157,825. So in addition to that $1 from Corporate (closer to $3, but that's irrelevant) they got back $22.27 in cash from me. For every $54 they put in, they actually got about $25 back in cash.

Throw in the trophies, patches, and other non-monetary player benefits, and my members got back half my revenue. No secret about that, it's in my bylaws. From the other half, subtract expenses which includes my part of the $54 million APA makes in revenue. Even if I had a healthy 20% profit margin that gives me $76,532 in profit, or income. Don't forget that money gets taxed and that tax includes full SSA taxes, not half like the guy who has a boss. At the end of the month I have less than $5,000 to pay my mortgage, utilities, health insurance, and other stuff not included in my business expenses. And I have one of the larger franchises. Tell me again how we're all swimming in money?

Well I will say for table time alone it would cost $5 each player and it’s only $8-9 a match. Do you pay the venues that host? I’m sure there is the whole profit loss curves etc etc, but I also wonder if the bar makes anything from the actual APA dues or just from the players. The people in my league think it’s ok to go in an hour or two early and practice for free. That’s a lot of extra wear and tear on bars equipment. I tried to pay my time last time and everyone gave me a dirty look. I’ve known the owner since 20 years ago and seems like the APA players are taking advantage of him hosting. They should have more respect for others.

 

[dendweller]

I don't have a ton of experience with APA, this is the first year I've played.

It's a masters league so there are no handicaps. A number of the areas stronger players play in it, a number of them 600+ fargo ratings.

It cost 10 dollars a week, for that you get to play pool all night.

Far as gambling goes, I'd say that's between the players and shouldn't effect the match given there is no handicapping.

It doesn't suck.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

I don't have a ton of experience with APA, this is the first year I've played.

It's a masters league so there are no handicaps. A number of the areas stronger players play in it, a number of them 600+ fargo ratings.

It cost 10 dollars a week, for that you get to play pool all night.

Far as gambling goes, I'd say that's between the players and shouldn't effect the match given there is no handicapping.

It doesn't suck.

Ah maybe that’s the rule of thumb then if at other spots also. On the free playing that is. It just seemed like 2 hours early was kind of pushing it(referring to my last post). I went in there with every intention of paying tt, and even payed the week prior. So it kind of took me by surprise.
Dendweller what surprises me on your post is there are a bunch of 600’s by you. I feel like I can spot anyone the 8 or more on league day. Like the 600’s are a dying breed!

 

[dendweller]

Ah maybe that’s the rule of thumb then if at other spots also. On the free playing that is. It just seemed like 2 hours early was kind of pushing it(referring to my last post). I went in there with every intention of paying tt, and even payed the week prior. So it kind of took me by surprise.
Dendweller what surprises me on your post is there are a bunch of 600’s by you. I feel like I can spot anyone the 8 or more on league day. Like the 600’s are a dying breed!

The place I play is a pool hall with at least 20 9 foot gold crown 3s.
Far as the 600s, there's 3 I can think of that play in that league, one of them is upper 6. There's also some that are close to 6.

I have a friend that's a good player, 580 or so, he got me into it. He said that he didn't want to do the apa but finally did it because it's a good place to find the better players so that he could gamble once his matches are done.

Also, there's a few that also play the next night in another legends league at another hall 15 miles away. That place also has mostly gold crowns and quite a bit of action.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot of apa stuff going on around where I am that's played in bars on small tables and is handicapped. I'm just talking the legend variety, only one I have any experience with.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

The place I play is a pool hall with at least 20 9 foot gold crown 3s.
Far as the 600s, there's 3 I can think of that play in that league, one of them is upper 6. There's also some that are close to 6.

I have a friend that's a good player, 580 or so, he got me into it. He said that he didn't want to do the apa but finally did it because it's a good place to find the better players so that he could gamble once his matches are done.

Also, there's a few that also play the next night in another legends league at another hall 15 miles away. That place also has mostly gold crowns and quite a bit of action.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot of apa stuff going on around where I am that's played in bars on small tables and is handicapped. I'm just talking the legend variety, only one I have any experience with.

There isn’t even an APA masters by me. At least not an easy to find one. APA app is worse than AZB when trying to search for something.

Thank God I’ll be in NC in May. I know there’s some players out that way. Then again where do Players go when out that way? I’ll be near Carolina beach and then making a stop near bowling green Kentucky on way back……lol!

 

[dendweller]

There isn’t even an APA masters by me. At least not an easy to find one. APA app is worse than AZB when trying to search for something.

Thank God I’ll be in NC in May. I know there’s some players out that way. Then again where do Players go when out that way? I’ll be near Carolina beach and then making a stop near bowling green Kentucky on way back……lol!

One other thing I would say about my experience, I don't think the play pool all night is an apa thing. If you go strickly with what the host has to supply I'd think it's probably one table for the two teams to play their matches. Not the way it works where I go.
If you were limited to one table for the two teams I'd have to revisit my statement about it not sucking.

 

[SBC]

So you think cash is a dirty word in apa ?

Do you realize they paid over a million dollars in payouts at last years nationals ?

Do you realize that for the measly sum of 7.00 a week plus 25.00 yearly membership plus 20.00 fee for a qualifying tournament for a grand total investment 409.00 per year that you could win 15.000 first place in an 8 ball tournament ?

A local apa 3 here won 7.500 for second place in 9 ball last year.

There is more to apa than patches....which you seem to be hung up on.

Do the math....it's a Ponzi scheme.

You guys are a cult of larpers, drunk on that APA Kool Aid.

Here's APA where I live....and they get together to play kickball tournaments in the summer.

 

[rharm]

Pretty much
My buddy won to go to nationals here and got 600...don't even cover the flight. APA serves up players to the casino and gets kickbacks for filling the hotel rooms.

Not saying it's bad business....it's All Business

I've played APA the last 4 years, earning 2 trips to Vegas. Went for Singles and APA comped the hotel room. I paid about $160 round trip and received $410 from APA for travel expenses when I checked in at the tournament. When I went for the team captains tournament, rooms weren't comped but APA had a block of them for $82 after taxes and fees. The money I received for winning the qualifying tournament covered my air and hotel.

 

[APA Operator]

Do the math....it's a Ponzi scheme.

You guys are a cult of larpers, drunk on that APA Kool Aid.

Here's APA where I live....and they get together to play kickball tournaments in the summer.

Well, at least you tried a different insult this time.

Ponzi scheme
[ˈpänzē ˌskēm]

NOUN

1. a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a nonexistent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.
   "a classic Ponzi scheme built on treachery and lies"

The enterprise exists, the only investors are franchise owners (so the LO would be the only victim of the "fraud", plus I get none of the other LO's investment), and the customer gets what they pay for before they ever pay for it. It's just a franchise business model, like McDonalds. How much you make depends on your ability to give the customer what they want.

I like Coke, but I don't try to tear down Pepsi just because it's not for me. That does me no good, hurts those who prefer Pepsi, and if I was successful it would raise the price of Coke. I'd have to be stupid to do that.