Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?

[hang-the-9]

Does Europe have leagues that

A. play primarily on tables smaller than 9'
B. reward sandbagging

I don't think the top players anywhere are into the leagues that much. That is only for the casual players who don't much care for serious competition or those that are interested in pool to stroke their egos when they win, not play good with winning as a secondary thing that happens.

I do think that handicap leagues bring down the average level of play in the country overall, but they don't have much of an affect on say the top 20 players in a country. Just on those bangers that stay bangers forever because they don't care to get better to win more due to free games given to them or the lack of people that care enough to teach them. The players that are serious about getting better will track down the tougher tables and matches on their own, I think that is the issue, they are on their own. There is no organization you can find that caters to growing pool players in the US so it's almost by accident can good players find coaching and instruction to start at a sold foundation to get better from. Many play for years with flawed mechanics before someone starts to teach them and by then it may be too late to get to the top levels.

 

[Swighey]

Now that is not even counting the Euro's who have lived here for multiple decades who by all intents and purposes should be counted for the US

You would benefit from losing this attitude. I would never expect anyone who grew up in the USA, and identifies with the USA, to play for my country (in any sport) just because they have lived in my home country for a long time and made it their home.

 

[Grimper]

The same thing has happened in women's golf. The Asians (especially South Koreans) have taken over the game. The funny thing is, Korea and Japan have so few golf courses, these women learn the game by spending 90% of their time at driving ranges. Drill after drill after drill. It works.

 

[DDiabolico]

I don't think the top players anywhere are into the leagues that much. That is only for the casual players who don't much care for serious competition or those that are interested in pool to stroke their egos when they win, not play good with winning as a secondary thing that happens.

I do think that handicap leagues bring down the average level of play in the country overall, but they don't have much of an affect on say the top 20 players in a country. Just on those bangers that stay bangers forever because they don't care to get better to win more due to free games given to them or the lack of people that care enough to teach them. The players that are serious about getting better will track down the tougher tables and matches on their own, I think that is the issue, they are on their own. There is no organization you can find that caters to growing pool players in the US so it's almost by accident can good players find coaching and instruction to start at a sold foundation to get better from. Many play for years with flawed mechanics before someone starts to teach them and by then it may be too late to get to the top levels.

A lot of top European players play league between their travels. Souquet, Ouschan, Lechner, Feijen, He, Alcaide all have played in the German Bundesliga at some point and still do.

 

[Ratta]

Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?

As one who has long placed the Asian players on a pedestal, I never thought I’d ever have to consider this possibility, but I’m starting to believe that Europe has passed Asia as the best pool playing continent.

At the US Open 9-ball in September, the last four standing were Biado, Yapp, Oi and Orcullo, so Asia was the story there. At the International, Ouschan won the 9-ball over Orcullo in the final while Filler won the10-ball over Immonen in the final.

In 2022, it hasn’t gone well at all for Asia. At the Derby City 9-ball, the last five standing were Sanchez-Ruiz, Filler, Garcia, He and Shaw. At the Derby City 10-ball, the last four standing were Filler, Gorst, Immonen and Shaw. At the Arizona Open, the last four standing were Gorst, Garcia, Fortunski, and Sanchez- Ruiz. The last four standing at the Las Vegas Open were Yapp, Szewczyck, Zielinski, and Immonen. Finally, at the World 10-ball, the last four standing were Szewczyck, Tevez, Kaci and Shaw. Yes, Europe has been dominating the play in 2022 to this point.

Of course, COVID affected Asia more than Europe, so that’s an extenuating circumstance here. Similarly, the absence of Gorst and Orcullo from major tournament play of late obscures our sense of things. The Chinese players haven't returned yet. Perhaps a year from now, the Chinese, Taiwanese and Filipinos will all return to their peak form and Asians will reestablish their long-term designation as the best in the world.

All that said, I think I’m ready to proclaim, not without some reservations, that Europe is now the top pool playing continent in the world.

What’s your opinion?

As usual very well chosen words sjm- one of the rare guys here where i ll have immediatley have a look into a thread as soon as you typed sth or started sth Hope you re doin well matey.


I won t go so far, that Asia would have fallen back-- what is fact is, that many european countries started "earlier" with young player to practice WELL STRUCTURED. Polan is the perfect example. they started school programs over a decade ago. And they show up on every eurotour with a high number of players-- and for sure always a hand full or even more, who could win the tournament as well.

Imo it is really the way, how the kids *get started" as soon as they take a stick in their hand. And now they re all takin the fruits. Europe has still so much lesser players than USA and ASIA- so for me this is a testament, that i m on the right track with my thinking.

I am 100% sure that there is so much talent in the USA Pool Billard- but they need to change something. Just look how many players you have there in your leagues....- so there is a bucket full of potential pro s, too.
Asia as well- they have so many player- if they would all come over to tournaments in USA and Europe i m also sure, that the winners would change more often >

Edited: What is in my opinion also a factor- that here in europe to "start with instruction" is more usual as it was let s say 25 years ago. Even today you have enough players around, who re smiliing a bit about the importance of a (good!!) instructor- and, the attention and knowledge of the psychological part- the mental part has made its way more and more into the understanding of the players over here.
As the great Ken Ravizza said: Attitude is a decision and preparation begins in the head- fact and period.

again- well chosen words sjm-

 

[Guy Manges]

Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?

As one who has long placed the Asian players on a pedestal, I never thought I’d ever have to consider this possibility, but I’m starting to believe that Europe has passed Asia as the best pool playing continent.

At the US Open 9-ball in September, the last four standing were Biado, Yapp, Oi and Orcullo, so Asia was the story there. At the International, Ouschan won the 9-ball over Orcullo in the final while Filler won the10-ball over Immonen in the final.

In 2022, it hasn’t gone well at all for Asia. At the Derby City 9-ball, the last five standing were Sanchez-Ruiz, Filler, Garcia, He and Shaw. At the Derby City 10-ball, the last four standing were Filler, Gorst, Immonen and Shaw. At the Arizona Open, the last four standing were Gorst, Garcia, Fortunski, and Sanchez- Ruiz. The last four standing at the Las Vegas Open were Yapp, Szewczyck, Zielinski, and Immonen. Finally, at the World 10-ball, the last four standing were Szewczyck, Tevez, Kaci and Shaw. Yes, Europe has been dominating the play in 2022 to this point.

Of course, COVID affected Asia more than Europe, so that’s an extenuating circumstance here. Similarly, the absence of Gorst and Orcullo from major tournament play of late obscures our sense of things. The Chinese players haven't returned yet. Perhaps a year from now, the Chinese, Taiwanese and Filipinos will all return to their peak form and Asians will reestablish their long-term designation as the best in the world.

All that said, I think I’m ready to proclaim, not without some reservations, that Europe is now the top pool playing continent in the world.

What’s your opinion?

Stu i believe the key here is the going back and forth between the Q Joy tables and the rest of the tables of the world. So much difference in the tables. Like going back and forth between the bar box , seven footers and nines, Cloth like Strachan 6811 and our cloth Simonis. I think many times I see players go from 9 ' tables too bar box with over confidence and play the tables to loose. I see this a lot with the tight Q Joy tables and our loose western style tables. Most of the games I watch are 8 Ball games through YouTube, Thomas Heal or Alison Chang. 5 balls and room on a 9 ' table can make a big difference this must be quiet a difference to the mind along with all else. I hope you can use this. Love of the pool games, Guy.

 

[sjm]

Stu i believe the key here is the going back and forth between the Q Joy tables and the rest of the tables of the world. So much difference in the tables. Like going back and forth between the bar box , seven footers and nines, Cloth like Strachan 6811 and our cloth Simonas. I think many times I see players go from 9 ' tables too bar box with over confidence and play the tables to loose. I see this a lot with the tight Q Joy tables and our loose western style tables. Most of the games I watch are 8 Ball games through YouTube, Thomas Heal or Alison Chang. 5 balls and room on a 9 ' table can make a big difference this must be quiet a difference to the mind along with all else. I hope you can use this. Love of the pool games, Guy.

Thanks for the education.

 

[Guy Manges]

Well said, VVP.

I really hate to raise this point, as it may be misinterpreted as a cheap shot at American instructors or the few teaching academies found in America. Still, it has to be asked: Are American instructors getting the job done or have they fallen behind the world in setting and teaching the best possible developmental agendas. Certain aspects of superior play are all about the stroke and basic fundamentals, but other parts of the game are about knowledge and learning how to apply that knowledge to accomplish superior shot conceptualization.

We are in an era where American pros, as a group, are weaker than their European and Asian counterparts in pattern play, defensive play, and kicking, and most of the skills in those portions of the game come down to knowledge and a theoretical comprehension of the subject matter. Are we not teaching these skills at all or just teaching them very poorly? My guess, and it's only a guess, is that we're not teaching them sufficiently.

American players are not doing much to practice the complementary skills. On about ten different occasions, I have asked an established American pro to show me how they practice their kicking. Just one of them was able to do so. Another said he played three-cushion once a week, and I liked that. All the others had no established practice routine for kicking.

For many of the skills, the instructors have to want to teach it and the players have to want to practice it. In far too many cases, that's not what's happening. Throwing financial resources at the problem won't fix things unless we are able to change this.

Stu I hope that I am saying this right, With our young players that have the extra talent for this game and the proper instructors, this game has many challenges and as the young talents get good or excellent in their game the game becomes to Easy and yet so hard for so many. This to Easy ( as we are humans ) once excepted we tend to loosen our game and with this and all the others so strong mentally we Peak. I watched this with young Filler , Josh's game against Tony Drago at 20 se. game clock dazzled Tony watching almost perfection from young Josh's game. Now sense that time I've watched Josh's game change from aggressive start too follow clean up... As you know that 60 % of 9 ball wins come from this way... Clean up after 9 ball break wins most of the games. I played 9 ball for a solid twenty years of my life, thank you for listing , Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

Saying Stu has no credibility is like saying, They where mostly peaceful protest WTF

Stu is the Eyes, Ears and Heart for many of us that are real old and can't play anymore, Thank and Bless you Stu...

 

[Guy Manges]

It seems like the young and talented Europeans are exposed to high-level (world class) play at an early age. In the US, this doesn't seem to be the case. I can't help but wonder if our bar culture plays a big role in this. Unless his or her father runs a pool room or has close ties to the sport, it's going to be really hard for an American 12-year old to play a lot of pool against really good people because no one is going to get let their kid hang out at a bar all day. In Europe, that same 12-year old could hang out a pool club which doesn't carry the same social stigma.

I've seen some very good and well trained young players. When they are old enough they go to bars so to play and gamble, True story...

 

[Guy Manges]

In the U.S., pool is a bar game. Pool and dart leagues are literally the only reason most bars are able to remain profitable. And most everyday people (non players) in the U.S. aren't fans at all of cuesport games. In Europe and Asia however, cuesports has a huge fanbase due to tv exposure and marketing, and it isn't considered "just a bar" game. Rather, it is seen as a respected sport. And unfortunately for the U.S., that's not going to change anytime soon. American pro pool is nearly non-existent relative to other nations.
Regarding the topic of Europeans vs. Asians, I agree with the folks who feel the Asians lost a step because of the pandemic, and that they will be back in stroke soon. BUT, Europe definitely has quite a talented young pool of players, and their future looks amazing! And, because of this, I feel that cuesports will finally become a sanctioned Olympic program in the very near future.

Your words are right on the money, thank you ...

 

[Guy Manges]

Much truth in what you say. Studying the game is a big part of the equation. One thing I always noticed about the young Shane Van Boening is that he often sweated matches after being eliminated from a tournament. Even Efren used to say that watching other matches often gave him some new ideas to toy around with. Keep watching what others do, and you'll have a bigger library of shots to choose from when you're the one at the table.

A good example of a very successful national coach is Alex Lely, who coached the players from the Netherlands for a few years. Alex' tutelage was a big factor in Niels Feijen finally getting over the finish line at the WPA World 9-ball Championship in 2014.

Though that really love these games will watch these games and learn from the players they are a fan of... I believe we have this in all sports...

 

[Guy Manges]

I say after 75 years of these games we have the greatest sport on this earth and this individual sport will last as long as there is mankind... ( Willie said he started out on a kitchen table with a broom stick and anything round... Thanks all for this life, in my eighties, Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the UK has any of these for pool either.

Yet, the UK has produced Appleton, Shaw, Boyes, Peach and Melling. Between them, they've won 3 World 9-ball Championships, a World 9-ball bronze, a World 10-ball Championship, a World 10-ball bronze, three US Open 9-ball Championships, a US Open 9-ball silver, a Derby City 9-ball Championship, several Derby City 10-ball Championships, a World 8-ball Championship and a World Chinese 8-ball Championship.

Thank you for that info, Yes I've been a fan of each and I see this as true...

 

[Guy Manges]

To those who have blamed a deficit in instruction as to the status of US pool I have a few comments:

1) Not all instruction is designed to breed world champions. 99.999% of players who compete in pool are not trying to become world champions. The vast, vast majority are simply trying to improve. Beginners are looking for help pocketing and with basic cue ball. Intermediate players are trying to improve their cue ball and patterns. Advanced players need help uncovering their leaks and fine tuning their cue ball, patterns, mental game, break, and yes, defense and kicking.

Because the vast majority of those seeking instruction are amateur, the vast majority of instruction is geared towards helping amateur players. If an instructor specializes in helping beginners develop proper technique I don't think it's fair to hold them responsible for the shortcomings of a few pro players they don't know. The fact is that if someone truly specialized in helping top pros get from 780 to 800+ they would have a demographic to market to of about 10 players, most of which wouldn't be interested in training with them, and none of whom could afford to pay enough to support an instructor when they can't support themselves.

2) Shot selection and moving isn't something players learn in an academy and isn't how most players rise to the top. Most players that make it start with a simple combination of skills: They have enough desire to walk through walls, they shoot super straight, they have an effective break, and they have enough cue ball and pattern knowledge to keep and angle and stay off the rail. That is it. They usually don't move anywhere near the veterans on the tour. Shaw, Filler and SVB follow this pattern. I remember SVB lost 70% of the moving games against Alex in their sets but won due to his break and firepower. Shaw had relatively weak patterns and cue ball in 2015. Etc.

What happened in all of these cases is the player made it to the top due to firepower and desire, but then after being at the top for a few years and playing against the elite they picked up the rest of these skills little by little. Learning the moving game is more dependent on consistent international competition, and that is where the US is lacking.

Additional thoughts:

I think to have a roster of US players over 800 Fargo that move with the top international players is less about a lack of instruction, and more about a lack of participation. When people have compared women to men in pool the most convincing evidence points to any skill discrepancies as stemming from the difference in the number of women and men who compete. Sorting by country is no different. To figure out the discrepancy between 800+ players by country, just look at the discrepancy of the number of players who are playing all of the international events full time. In the US I can only think of a few US players that are competing full time and seriously trying to get to the top.

I think a better question is why do we have so few players playing full time? We have to trace it back earlier and earlier. I don't have all of the answers but I have a few suspicions. Those who say the opportunity for junior players to thrive are definitely on to something. If we are going to have top US players they need to get there young, while they still have the freedom to travel internationally and aren't burdened by responsibility. I do agree training juniors and supporting them in their travel is a big deal.

Outside of that I think that incentives come into play. The sacrifice to try to play world class pool is so great and yields so little it would make more sense to question why anyone does it rather than why any do not. I'm not sure what the state of things are in Poland, China, or the Philippines are to where a number of players are chasing this path. But in the US our quality of life available for a normal person is pretty good, and it is a lot to sacrifice to go all in on pool. Is it possible that hardship breeds greatness in competition? What if the only way to increase US representation on the top level was to drastically lower our quality of life and have our children living in hardship? Would that make sense to do?

These last few paragraphs are just musings. Honestly I don't know what it would take to get the US competitive at the highest levels. I just don't feel it is because I am not pushing the 500-675 Fargo Rate amateurs I work with in the right direction. As for the 13 year olds I train with who are showing threat to the future I do make a point of working on the moving side of the game regularly, but I can't train on skills past the level I personal understand, which isn't at the absolute highest level.

Demetrius, Thank you for what you do for our youths, Thank you for your honesty, Because of like you these games will go on for as long as we know... Bless you, Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

that's about how i see it as well. we have only seen the return of a few asians. the ko bros and chang didn't impress much, but maybe that says more about the importance of staying in tournament action than it says about the state of pool in europe vs asia. just look at nayuki oi, he's constantly played in tournaments and placed high. few would argue that he's fundamentally a better player than the former mentioned taiwanese.

i still expect the taiwanese, plus wu, haitao, zheng, etc to be a major factor in the coming 9-ball tour

It's hard for all, The mental and physical games difference between Q Joy Table 8 Ball Games compared to the rest of the world 9' 9 Ball Table Games, So much for one to adjust to... Tight or loose just goes on and on ... Just ( Desire, and love the games...

 

[mikemosconi]

I see many pool places replacing 9 footers with 7 footers here in the U.S.- what small amounts of pool places that still exist here. That should tell us all we need to know about the present U.S. commitment to world pool dominance.

 

[realkingcobra]

I see many pool places replacing 9 footers with 7 footers here in the U.S.- what small amounts of pool places that still exist here. That should tell us all we need to know about the present U.S. commitment to world pool dominance.

I wonder how many 9ft pool tables there are in Albania to produce a Professional pool player like Kaci? It's not the size of the tables, or how many tables there are to play on, that sets the determination of a player to become a world class player, its the players drive, determination, and willingness to learn and improve, on ANYTHING available!!!!!!

 

[Fatboy]

America passed everyone today

SVB

 

[realkingcobra]

Do you see Russia, Germany, Albania, Poland on that list of most popular countries for playing pool? Yet they're producing world class players, right?

What country is pool most popular?

Pool is most popular in America, whereas snooker is most popular in the United Kingdom. Pocket billiards are also popular in other countries such as Canada, Australia, Taiwan, the Philippines, Ireland, and China.Oct 22, 2019