Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
Woodshaft
Do what works for YOU!
In the U.S., pool is a bar game. Pool and dart leagues are literally the only reason most bars are able to remain profitable. And most everyday people (non players) in the U.S. aren't fans at all of cuesport games. In Europe and Asia however, cuesports has a huge fanbase due to tv exposure and marketing, and it isn't considered "just a bar" game. Rather, it is seen as a respected sport. And unfortunately for the U.S., that's not going to change anytime soon. American pro pool is nearly non-existent relative to other nations.
Regarding the topic of Europeans vs. Asians, I agree with the folks who feel the Asians lost a step because of the pandemic, and that they will be back in stroke soon. BUT, Europe definitely has quite a talented young pool of players, and their future looks amazing! And, because of this, I feel that cuesports will finally become a sanctioned Olympic program in the very near future.
Regarding the topic of Europeans vs. Asians, I agree with the folks who feel the Asians lost a step because of the pandemic, and that they will be back in stroke soon. BUT, Europe definitely has quite a talented young pool of players, and their future looks amazing! And, because of this, I feel that cuesports will finally become a sanctioned Olympic program in the very near future.
telinoz
Registered
The WCBS (World Confederation of Billiards Sports) whom the IOC recognises, has stuck with the IBSF for Snooker.
The IBSF is on the fringe, not much support.
World Snooker, WPBSA, The World Snooker tour and the WSF (World Snooker Federation) hold all the keys to the Professionals and the amateur game that gives out shots with a 2 year tour card.
I mention this as the IOC looks for unity and who represents the crowd drawing and paying customers.
So, the pitch has a big hole in it.
If the WCBS went with the WSF or WPBSA it would be different.
Snooker has by far the biggest prizes and sponsors, with real World coverage now.
UMB for carom is solid.
In terms of governance and rules etc.
Prize money not massive, but it is stable.
Pool is still basket case, if you ignore 2 shot, blackball etc then WPA using 2 1/4" balls, the majority of players are in that camp.
Still lots of infighting and calendar issues..
Rule variations and what game gets to be shown?
Just too many pool variations for the IOC.
8ball most popular, player wise, but 9ball most paid and the choice for World Champ title.
Cuesports after several decades of being passed over for the Olympics looks to have more decades in the weeds if Snooker and Pool under WCBS don't sort themselves out.
We bring up this topic of Europe vs. Asia vs. America every two or three month and there are many reasons why European players have been so successful over the past decade. A lot of this reasons have been mentioned.
But every time we talk about this, I get the feeling, that some people here think, that Europe is something like the wholy land for a pool player, with governments throwing money at everyone, who can hold a cue, with huge national programms, finding new talent in every corner, with hundreds of kids and teenagers lining up in front of the pool halls.
And yes, some countries offer funding for pro players and there are national teams, with coaches, training camps and so on.
But this is only the tip of the iceberg.
In my opinion the success of European pool is an unsung heroes story.
It is about all the guys who offer practice sessions at their clubs, basically for free.
It is about all the amateurs, who pay for playing in tournaments, just to keep their local organizations alive.
It is about pool hall owners, who try to offer their players the best equipment possible, even though they know, that they will make a loss, if they order new sets of pool balls or new cloth for their tables.
The amateur scene in Europe prepares the ground for new talent.
And all the players, who work their way up through their local tournaments, national championships, Eurotour have to be very special, otherwise they would not have made it.
All the techniques, the kicking, the jumping, the mental strength, the knowledge of the game...they are forced to learn quickly if they want to go up the ranks.
And this learning effect also goes down the ranks, as other players, teams or coaches have to adept, if they want to be competitive.
But every time we talk about this, I get the feeling, that some people here think, that Europe is something like the wholy land for a pool player, with governments throwing money at everyone, who can hold a cue, with huge national programms, finding new talent in every corner, with hundreds of kids and teenagers lining up in front of the pool halls.
And yes, some countries offer funding for pro players and there are national teams, with coaches, training camps and so on.
But this is only the tip of the iceberg.
In my opinion the success of European pool is an unsung heroes story.
It is about all the guys who offer practice sessions at their clubs, basically for free.
It is about all the amateurs, who pay for playing in tournaments, just to keep their local organizations alive.
It is about pool hall owners, who try to offer their players the best equipment possible, even though they know, that they will make a loss, if they order new sets of pool balls or new cloth for their tables.
The amateur scene in Europe prepares the ground for new talent.
And all the players, who work their way up through their local tournaments, national championships, Eurotour have to be very special, otherwise they would not have made it.
All the techniques, the kicking, the jumping, the mental strength, the knowledge of the game...they are forced to learn quickly if they want to go up the ranks.
And this learning effect also goes down the ranks, as other players, teams or coaches have to adept, if they want to be competitive.
Talking to a local manager who is involved in many national events. He's convinced that billiards will never be part of the Olympics. The IOC is looking to reduce the number of Olympic events not add to them.
Billiards is already part of the World Games, (runs each four years, one year after the Olympics). The World Games hosts those sporting events that aren't prominent enough (or athletic enough?) to be part of the main Olympics. Includes archery, softball, lacrosse, bowling, raquetball, etc.
Billiards is in the classification of "Precision Sports" Carom, Snooker, and 9-ball.
But the World Games doesn't get that much press. This year, in mid-July, the World Games is in Birmingham Alabama, at the Sheraton Hotel ballroom.
Who's on the US World Games Team? Does anybody know? Will the US even have a team?
Are you living under a rock or talking into a mirror?
Sjm is a highly knowledgeable and unbiased commentator on the topic.
There was another thread with a fuller discussion, but 2036 is the next possible shot for billiards in the Olympics. It's not part of the 2024 or 2028 games. 2032 is in Australia and it's likely their local sports (rugby, cricket) are going to get in. Of course, based on the commercial failures of the last few Olympics, who knows if they will even exist in their current form by then.
For the World Games, it's SVB and Styer for the US men and Jennifer Barretta and Monica Webb for the US women.
Van Boening and Barretta Highlight North American World Games Contingent - News - AZBILLIARDS.COM
The list of North American representatives for the 2022 World Games has now been finalized and a team of six players will represent the continent. On the Men’s side, Shane van Boening and Tyler Styer will represent the USA, while John Morra will represent Canada. Van Boening and Styer earned the
On an issue like this, it’s tough to generalize on the basis of a single year. One year is more of a snapshot in time (especially with the effects of Covid still reverberating) than multiple years. A more realistic assessment should be on the basis of several years, maybe three to five. A single year may be the leading edge of a new trend but the Asians could bounce back next year.
Tevez is a very accomplished player at both pocket and carom billiards. He represented Peru in a recent world billiards team event in Germany.
He lived here in New York City for several years beginning in about 2006, then he moved to Jacksonville, Florida for several years. Now, he's living in New York City again and he's house pro at Amsterdam Billiards in Manhattan.
Yes, I did take note that deep study of the play of the top kickers would offer this kind of knowledge, although I can't say I have ever heard a commentator that addressed the kinds of issues that I rose in my post. A player needs proper tutelage to be able to start studying the play of the best kickers with any real insight.
After that, however, they'll have to do the work themselves to gain the knowledge. there are many theoretical topics in pool that I haven't heard mentioned even once by any pool commentator to which I've ever listened.
So, if you mean that if one acquires the right foundation and then studies Youtube videos of the most elite kickers (personally, I think they'll have more success with the sound on mute) long enough, the resources are already out there, I agree. If, on the other hand, you think these topics have ever been covered by English-language commentators, I couldn't agree less.
Nice post.
I would take note, though, that, whether it generates press or not, the World Games does generate a lot of money for the national IOCs of the countries whose players are successful.
Even in pool, this is at least in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, so the World Games is still an important cog in the wheel that is the International Olympic committee.
I can't offer the details here because I don't know them.
How much do top American players, or even pro pool players in general, practice with each other? One thing that struck me about snooker is many of the top players practice with each other regularly and only play for maybe a tenner.
Good question. It certainly happens, but perhaps not as often as would serve the players best.
I think snooker is more centralized geographically. Aren't most of the big events in the UK and aren't most of the snooker pros based in the UK? The entire UK is slightly smaller than the state of Oregon, so it would seem that finding a pro to practice with shouldn't be that difficult. In contrast, pool players live all over the world.
As for America, right now, there aren't many American pros at all. I've gone back and forth over the years, always in the 725-750 Fargo range as to the pro cutoff, but even if we go with the more lenient number of 725, there are just 71 pros in America, so an American pro looking for a match with another American pro has a tough task.
All that said, this is pure speculation.
Correct snooker is more centralized. Even with more global events, the qualifiers for all events are in the UK which basically requires a pro snooker player to uproot and base themselves there. Not all do, but certainly any pro player who doesn’t reside in Europe does. For example, the pro Chinese players are based at the same academy and practice with each other regularly between tournaments. Any player outside of the UK or Europe who doesn’t move there, has had limited success.
I just wondered if there were a benefit to a situation where perhaps SVB, Billy and Sky travelling to each other’s home base and doing races to 25 with each other behind closed doors for a week in the run up to the world championships or something.
My uneducated guess/observation has been that top players seem to rarely match up outside of gambling or tournament play.
Meanwhile, I do know that the top snooker players often match up just to practice and supplement that with a heavy diet of structured practice routines. Not all of them mind you. For example, Luca Brecel recently said that he mostly practices alone and gets his match practice in tournaments.
But difference with pool is just how open the game the is. You can play a 625 player your first round, 770 in round 2, 725 in round 3 and not run into a top, 800 level, player for a while. Consistent practice matches or stable of players could certainly help there.
i don't know really how to measure the importance of instructors. the best young players in my part of europe don't have coaches or tutors in that sense, that part seems more organic here. monkey see, monkey do, and they tend to have other high level players in their clubs who they always practice and match up with. and these kids do watch a lot of pool too, both youtube and eurotour/kozoom.
i know that russia had a national coach for a while, maybe poland does too. other than that i don't know how prevalent it is. the technical aspects have never been trade secrets over here.