Nice little picture

[Dan White]

If crooked looked straight then by definition it wasn't your vision center. That's where straight looks straight.

We've discussed this before but haven't seen eye to eye on this. I'm probably not making my point very clearly. Let me try it this way: When many of us started playing we simply got into shooting position where the shot looked AND FELT straight. I add "felt" because you can't see much of the cue and your grip hand while in shooting position so however you end up down on a shot that is what looks and feels straight to you naturally. This may not in fact be a straight alignment and a course correction would be needed mid stroke ala Bob Jewett's demonstration where he swoops the cue to make it straight. So what does that mean? It means that you need to get an independent confirmation from a friend or laser that the ob/cb/cue/grip hand and arguably the upper arm are all on the same line while you are holding the cue. Once you get that confirmation you can now see if you can move to a position where that confirmed straight LOOKS straight. Here's the point: once your brain has decided that crooked looks straight, there is not necessarily a new head position where this new straight looks straight and you are able to get into shooting position.

I recall when my father looked down my cue and kept telling me to move the cue over a little more... a little more. When it was straight he said STOP, PERFECT. I asked him if he was on drugs because there was no way that was straight. My brain had become used to a crooked alignment and considered it to be straight. The real straight line did not look straight to me no matter what, unless possibly if I had gotten out of shooting position and then crouched down to look down the cue, but there's no point in that. The solution for me was to retrain my brain as to what straight was. It involved trusting that I was really straight even when it didn't look like it. I had to switch from left eye to right eye in order to get my arm in line with the cue and I had to trust the shot. Positive results and time resulted in a new, straight alignment in which there is no swoop in my stroke due to perception issues (hand/wrist issues are another story).

What is the point in the concept of "vision center" for many players where there is no "straight looks straight" while in shooting position? Think about it. In Dave's video he and Bob agreed that Bob has been playing with a crooked set up for so long that it wasn't worth training him to do it right. That's not because his arm won't swing straight it's because he can't see straight as straight and would need to retrain his perception to make straight work.

Then there are professional instructors who do not subscribe to the vision center concept. I'm just saying the idea isn't completely fleshed out for anyone but possibly rank beginners.

I think pretty much anybody, after positively determining their stick is "straight", can find the head position over it where it looks straight(est). That's all the vision center concept is - probably the best place to start training your perception.

pj
chgo

Not when your brain has already been trained to see a crooked shooting set up as straight. I would love to ask Bob to align his head where straight looks straight and see if he could then move the cue without poking himself in the back or leg. It takes time to relearn straight, which means 'vision center" doesn't have much meaning to such a person.

I haven't made a career out of studying all of this stuff, so I don't have all the answers. I'm just saying things are more complicated than just "vision center, vision center."

 

[SpiderWebComm]

We've discussed this before but haven't seen eye to eye on this. I'm probably not making my point very clearly. Let me try it this way: When many of us started playing we simply got into shooting position where the shot looked AND FELT straight. I add "felt" because you can't see much of the cue and your grip hand while in shooting position so however you end up down on a shot that is what looks and feels straight to you naturally. This may not in fact be a straight alignment and a course correction would be needed mid stroke ala Bob Jewett's demonstration where he swoops the cue to make it straight. So what does that mean? It means that you need to get an independent confirmation from a friend or laser that the ob/cb/cue/grip hand and arguably the upper arm are all on the same line while you are holding the cue. Once you get that confirmation you can now see if you can move to a position where that confirmed straight LOOKS straight. Here's the point: once your brain has decided that crooked looks straight, there is not necessarily a new head position where this new straight looks straight and you are able to get into shooting position.

I recall when my father looked down my cue and kept telling me to move the cue over a little more... a little more. When it was straight he said STOP, PERFECT. I asked him if he was on drugs because there was no way that was straight. My brain had become used to a crooked alignment and considered it to be straight. The real straight line did not look straight to me no matter what, unless possibly if I had gotten out of shooting position and then crouched down to look down the cue, but there's no point in that. The solution for me was to retrain my brain as to what straight was. It involved trusting that I was really straight even when it didn't look like it. I had to switch from left eye to right eye in order to get my arm in line with the cue and I had to trust the shot. Positive results and time resulted in a new, straight alignment in which there is no swoop in my stroke due to perception issues (hand/wrist issues are another story).

What is the point in the concept of "vision center" for many players where there is no "straight looks straight" while in shooting position? Think about it. In Dave's video he and Bob agreed that Bob has been playing with a crooked set up for so long that it wasn't worth training him to do it right. That's not because his arm won't swing straight it's because he can't see straight as straight and would need to retrain his perception to make straight work.

Then there are professional instructors who do not subscribe to the vision center concept. I'm just saying the idea isn't completely fleshed out for anyone but possibly rank beginners.


Not when your brain has already been trained to see a crooked shooting set up as straight. I would love to ask Bob to align his head where straight looks straight and see if he could then move the cue without poking himself in the back or leg. It takes time to relearn straight, which means 'vision center" doesn't have much meaning to such a person.

I haven't made a career out of studying all of this stuff, so I don't have all the answers. I'm just saying things are more complicated than just "vision center, vision center."

That's one helluva post! But being "straight" while reading it isn't the way to go. I think a bottle of bourbon or some weed would help to get "unstraight" to understand all the thought that went into the "straight" concept you laid out. LMAO!

WHEW!! (you might be on to something though)

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you need to get an independent confirmation from a friend or laser that the ob/cb/cue/grip hand and arguably the upper arm are all on the same line while you are holding the cue.

That must be why I said (and you quoted) "I think pretty much anybody, after positively determining their stick is "straight", can find the head position over it where it looks straight(est). That's all the vision center concept is - probably the best place to start training your perception."

...once your brain has decided that crooked looks straight, there is not necessarily a new head position where this new straight looks straight and you are able to get into shooting position.

I doubt that's true very often, but if it's true for you then I suppose vision center isn't your cup o' tea. That doesn't invalidate the concept or its usefulness for anybody else.

pj
chgo

 

[Dan White]

That's one helluva post! But being "straight" while reading it isn't the way to go. I think a bottle of bourbon or some weed would help to get "unstraight" to understand all the thought that went into the "straight" concept you laid out. LMAO!

WHEW!! (you might be on to something though)

I'll take that as a compliment.

 

[Dan White]

That must be why I said (and you quoted) "I think pretty much anybody, after positively determining their stick is "straight", can find the head position over it where it looks straight(est). That's all the vision center concept is - probably the best place to start training your perception."

I doubt that's true very often, but if it's true for you then I suppose vision center isn't your cup o' tea. That doesn't invalidate the concept or its usefulness for anybody else.

pj
chgo

Some people make up their mind about something and then never change it. I'm sure I've been guilty of that myself. If you're OK with "It's a useful concept except when it isn't" then we'll have to agree to disagree. In one little read thread on this forum there was me and one other guy (JV?) who had the same issue. That tells me it's not an unusual thing... Oh, add Bob Jewett to the list, too.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you're OK with "It's a useful concept except when it isn't" then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Most useful concepts have exceptions. We just seem to disagree which is the exception in this case.

In one little read thread on this forum there was me and one other guy (JV?) who had the same issue. That tells me it's not an unusual thing... Oh, add Bob Jewett to the list, too.

I don't recall Bob saying he couldn't fix his vision center - more like he had too many years already invested in his personal stance/visualization. I suspect that when there's a problem that's almost always it.

Some people make up their mind about something and then never change it.

Some people don't have a good enough argument to change it.

pj
chgo

 

[Dan White]

Most useful concepts have exceptions. We just seem to disagree which is the exception in this case.


I don't recall Bob saying he couldn't fix his vision center - more like he had too many years already invested in his personal stance/visualization. I suspect that when there's a problem that's almost always it.

What does "invested" really mean? Is his visualization and stance vested in a nice 401K plan? Why can't Bob simply find where straight looks straight? Keep in mind he's already seeing what his brain thinks is straight. I "fixed" my vision center, too, but it doesn't happen the way Dave describes it. You might have to force things until it eventually looks right. I'm not an instructor but this worked for me.

Some people don't have a good enough argument to change it.

pj
chgo

Hey, I can't make the horse drink. At least spider gets it.... hmm, maybe I should rethink things.

 

[Dan White]

What happened to Larry's posts?

 

[bbb]

What happened to Larry's posts?

I deleted it
Check your pm

 

[Dan White]

I deleted it
Check your pm

Yes, after straightening out the stroke my shots are better, just more solid. I can hit the ball much harder when needed with better results. Of course, there is a lot more to a good cue delivery than lining up straight. You have to prevent yourself from getting in the way of the straight cue delivery.

I find that my cue ball control is better, too. Consistent ball movement for left and right cuts leads to better feedback and quicker improvement.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What does "invested" really mean? Is his visualization and stance vested in a nice 401K plan? Why can't Bob simply find where straight looks straight? Keep in mind he's already seeing what his brain thinks is straight. I "fixed" my vision center, too, but it doesn't happen the way Dave describes it. You might have to force things until it eventually looks right. I'm not an instructor but this worked for me.



Hey, I can't make the horse drink. At least spider gets it.... hmm, maybe I should rethink things.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I've been told by some very reliable sources that there's a couple of methods of aiming which links the CB to the OB in some sort of different way than can also dial it into various pockets without having to obsess over vision center with the stick to a finite spot on the OB. It does require retraining your vision, head position, and body to do it though.

Those who grew up with "painting by the numbers" coloring books and carry it into their pool game are the least likely to use or acknowledge these new methods even though they're now used by a number of pro players and thousands of regular Joe pool players with great success. Fact is, it's the rage of the pool world. (except for the small gaggle of "painting by the numbers" marching in lockstep diehards)

It's kinda similar to how the jump shot outdated the set shot in basketball; how kickers in pro football have gone to a sidewinder approach with the top of the foot impacting the ball instead of straight on with the toes kick doing it;

or how the high jump has morphed from a straight on run to the bar jumping straight over...then sideways...and now completely backwards.

Did you ever wonder how Mike Massey uses his vision center? Does he even care?

 

[Dan White]

I don't know if this is true or not,

It's not. It's another example of the brain's ability to make things happen when you give it a task to do, like seeing crooked as straight or believing the balls are connected to the pockets just by looking at them in a funny way. IMO.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yes, after straightening out the stroke my shots are better, just more solid. I can hit the ball much harder when needed with better results. Of course, there is a lot more to a good cue delivery than lining up straight. You have to prevent yourself from getting in the way of the straight cue delivery.

I find that my cue ball control is better, too. Consistent ball movement for left and right cuts leads to better feedback and quicker improvement.

I honestly don't know what you're attempting to do, doing, or the end goal with this straight stroke obsession. There are so many things that go into it which you haven't even mentioned.

Here's a "for instance". What have you worked on regarding the "wrist position" at address, during the practice strokes, and then cue delivery to the CB?

My guess is that you have a perfectly straight back of the wrist throughout everything and from there it can easily allow the fingers, knuckles, and the hand to curl slightly under or rotate upwards. You probably aren't even aware of it when it happens but it WILL change the orientation or alignment of the shaft/tip just enough to miss a shot. In other words, you have a TWO WAY potential for manipulation.

However the fingers, knuckles, and the back of the hand can be preset to be either concave (cupped) or convex (bowed) in addition to neutral.
Once it's held and locked in that position, it's pretty hard to rotate or flip in the backstroke or forward stroke.
Do you get the picture of what I'm talking about?

Keith McCready would be a great example of a player with a concave wrist position. Stan and Landon both have a convex wrist position as do many pros.

Then there's also the ELBOW position at address as well as in the backstroke. Watch:

 

[boogieman]

Seeing straight as straight is one of the most important fundamentals. Yes, you can play however you're used to playing for years. It takes work and several weeks/months of frustration to groove in what truly straight is. Like all good things, it eventually becomes automatic and you can put it on the back burner in your mind.

I hadn't played pool for 10 years or so when I started back in. I could make balls but my game was gone. Eventually I learned the fundamentals. How to see the shot, stance, many things were pieced together. Grip hand, bridge hand, learning open bridge, learning better and more natural patterns, etc.

The "point" is, once I actually saw straight as straight, improvement came rapidly. At times it feels frustratingly slow, but I could give me from 2 years ago the orange crush and still beat the pants off of him. If I had played that entire 10 years it may not have been worth it to rebuild my game from the ground up.

I think getting vision center figured out is important for everyone, but it may be at the point of diminishing returns for some. If I were teaching a beginning player, I would definitely work on vision center. Get them seeing consistently while working hard on the other fundamentals. If I were able to time travel, I would tell my past self to work on fundamentals for 6 months before trying to pocket a ball. Hopefully my younger stubborn ass would listen, but probably not!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

It's not. It's another example of the brain's ability to make things happen when you give it a task to do, like seeing crooked as straight or believing the balls are connected to the pockets just by looking at them in a funny way. IMO.

What is true is that amateur players in most all sports totally misdiagnose what the real problem is vs. what an experienced pro instructor/player does. The pro can actually see what's in front of him while the amateur only imagines what he thinks is happening as well as focusing on the wrong thing and totally disregarding or not knowing all possibilities that could tie into the problem and fix.

It's like wookin pa nub in all da wrong places:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

It's not. It's another example of the brain's ability to make things happen when you give it a task to do, like seeing crooked as straight or believing the balls are connected to the pockets just by looking at them in a funny way. IMO.

It could be characterized as a funny way but it's only a different way that has never been done before. And yes, if learned and practiced it is connected to a pocket(s). It's not just a belief but a fact once understood, practiced, and performed correctly.

Same example I listed in another post regarding the high jump, way of shooting a basketball, or kicking a football. ALL were looked at suspiciously and disparagingly when first introduced but took over the old methods in each sport. Same thing has happened with pool. Wake up!

 

[Dan White]

I honestly don't know what you're attempting to do, doing, or the end goal with this straight stroke obsession. There are so many things that go into it which you haven't even mentioned.

Here's a "for instance". What have you worked on regarding the "wrist position" at address, during the practice strokes, and then cue delivery to the CB?

My guess is that you have a perfectly straight back of the wrist throughout everything and from there it can easily allow the fingers, knuckles, and the hand to curl slightly under or rotate upwards. You probably aren't even aware of it when it happens but it WILL change the orientation or alignment of the shaft/tip just enough to miss a shot. In other words, you have a TWO WAY potential for manipulation.

However the fingers, knuckles, and the back of the hand can be preset to be either concave (cupped) or convex (bowed) in addition to neutral.
Once it's held and locked in that position, it's pretty hard to rotate or flip in the backstroke or forward stroke.
Do you get the picture of what I'm talking about?

Keith McCready would be a great example of a player with a concave wrist position. Stan and Landon both have a convex wrist position as do many pros.

Then there's also the ELBOW position at address as well as in the backstroke. Watch:

Yes, I'm aware of all that. This discussion was purely about the idea of a "vision center." My contention is that the vision center argument is a bit simplistic and is not something all teaching pro's agree on. PJ thinks it's just fine as is.

When I knew that my cue was precisely on the straight line it became easier to diagnose other issues such as wrist position. As you reduce the variables that contribute to a misalignment it becomes easier to find the remaining ones. I don't want to give the impression that I have everything all figured out, but a simple mindset of "OK the cue is on the correct line. Don't screw that up when you swing." is surprisingly useful.

 

[cookie man]

It's not. It's another example of the brain's ability to make things happen when you give it a task to do, like seeing crooked as straight or believing the balls are connected to the pockets just by looking at them in a funny way. IMO.

Wouldn’t the subconscious fix your stroke automatically. Kinda like how you think it solves all problems and dominates your pool game

 

[Dan White]

It could be characterized as a funny way but it's only a different way that has never been done before. And yes, if learned and practiced it is connected to a pocket(s). It's not just a belief but a fact once understood, practiced, and performed correctly.

Same example I listed in another post regarding the high jump, way of shooting a basketball, or kicking a football. ALL were looked at suspiciously and disparagingly when first introduced but took over the old methods in each sport. Same thing has happened with pool. Wake up!

It would do your cause wonders if you could prove that the balls go in the pockets because CTE connects them to those pockets, rather than the brain simply accomplishing the goal you set out for it, namely, pocket balls while using an unusual pre shot routine called CTE. Just saying the proof it works is that it works if you try it is not enough.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yes, I'm aware of all that. This discussion was purely about the idea of a "vision center." My contention is that the vision center argument is a bit simplistic and is not something all teaching pro's agree on. PJ thinks it's just fine as is.

When I knew that my cue was precisely on the straight line it became easier to diagnose other issues such as wrist position. As you reduce the variables that contribute to a misalignment it becomes easier to find the remaining ones. I don't want to give the impression that I have everything all figured out, but a simple mindset of "OK the cue is on the correct line. Don't screw that up when you swing." is surprisingly useful.

You're locked into vision center and there are so many other possibilities that could be the culprit. As far as I know, you are an amateur, correct? Before you ask, yes, I am also but have been with a good number of pro instructors and players that have enlightened me in many different ways.

Maybe you self-diagnose all possibilities of your health and well being. Me...I have a different Dr. for various things.