Stan Shuffett has already done that with many videos, a book, and private lessons. Thousands (yes, THOUSANDS) of pool players
across the world are in agreement. They far outnumber what I call the "8 dissenters" on AZ. It's not even 8.
Nice little picture
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across the world are in agreement. They far outnumber what I call the "8 dissenters" on AZ. It's not even 8.
Good point. Actually, it does. Early on in this discussion I said a straight alignment involves not only seeing, but feeling, that the cue is straight. I think what happens is that you get used to a grip hand position that "feels" like it is on the shot line but really isn't exactly. If you stroke through that line you will miss. So what happens? The subconscious makes a mid stroke correction. I learned this through slow mo video of the butt of the cue. I would draw the cue back along my incorrect line and then just as I went forward I would pull the cue to the right nearly a quarter inch as it moved forward. Bob Jewett does the same thing in a rather significant way as well. This is the subconscious achieving the goal of pocketing the ball even though the alignment is wrong. So I start off with a comfortable, but wrong, grip hand that is not on the shot line, but it feels like it is. The subconscious corrects for that with a swoop, pocketing the ball. The successful result reinforces the idea that everything is going well and we shoot that way for the next 30 years. I found that my stroke broke down on hard hit shots so I decided to fix it. That's when I started seeing these flaws and learned that all was not OK. I still remember throwing my arms up in exasperation saying, "I just can't hit a damned ball hard." I attributed that to a break down in my ability to swoop into position. Of course, it could have been simply gripping the cue too hard or many other things, but the swoop is not something I needed to keep in my game in any case.
I'm of the opinion that getting everything aligned is important. Other elements of the stroke are also important, but we've been discussing vision center here.
I'm very much an amateur, often not playing more than 1/2 hour a week lately, but I don't believe I have any real culprits left. I think I have the important things worked out.
So, is this "END OF STORY" with a happy ending?
You don't seem to understand what proof is. I don't really want to open up another CTE argument.
You did make one or two snide backhanded comments about it in the middle of everything.
I'm not interested in talking about CTE for those disinterested or opposed to it. But I will stand up for its validity, those who developed and teach it, and those who are very good players and super human beings in every day life.
For the record, CTE was not part of this discussion until you showed up. Let's just drop it and be civil?
Now this accusation is really going to piss me off!! CTE was part of the discussion on PAGE 1 POST #15 of this thread when anti-CTE Joey in Cali brought it up!
The thread has been civil so take a long deep breath and get a grip on your own self.
As far as vision center goes and looking at the 8 pictures of all the top pro players on page 1, I don't even know what the hell it means. How can THEIR vision centers be described or analyzed? Vision Center is like going on a SNIPE hunt!
Not one of them uses CTE.
Barabim!
What is the reason behind statement? Facts, or just stirring pot per your norm?
Pro Players miss or loose game, or match because they goofed, sold out, or gave opponent opportunity.
Everyone must aim some how, but when you do same shot over, and over mussel memory kicks in.
You're right, technically. What I meant by "this discussion" was my conversation with PJ since Thursday in which we were talking about vision centers. CTE had nothing to do with THAT conversation until you introduced it.
I agree with you about vision centers. Not all pro's agree that it is a useful concept, and I have concerns that the idea is not well enough fleshed out for all but rank beginners. My experience is that sometimes you have to force yourself to see straight. It is not necessarily a naturally found thing like the vision center concept espouses. And, the vision center or straight alignment certainly cannot be assured if you are not holding the cue in your hand in shooting position while checking for straightness... unless you are teaching a rank beginner.
It depends on how you interpreted it which I feel had plenty to do with vision center. IOW, if you're lining up the right edge of the CB to the center of the OB and at the same time getting in position to see the center of the CB at the left edge of the OB, where in the hell is the vision center located for TWO visuals? When it can be seen, then the body, head and cue all drop down into the stance from that perspective into CCB to the visual. The term vision center, to me, has no meaning or application in those circumstances. Probably nothing else other than a dead straight in shot with the CB and OB 6" to 18" apart. There you can see "straight" and drop everything down into it.
When using CB to contact points or fractions, each tick on the OB from center to edge is about 3mm in both directions and then you have to link CCB or an equal and opposite spot on the CB to that OB tick. I shot that way for years, but I can't even describe where or how vision center came into play with all of the finite lining up between the two balls.
I go back to the picture of all 8 pros on post #1 and page #1 of this thread. How can vision center be explained? Even if it can, there are still no guarantees that it automatically leads to a perfect stroke and fundamentals unaffected by nerves.
Pool played on a home table alone with no consequences for missing, losing money, a match that others are relying on for a team, can do things to the best laid plans and techniques of everyone regardless of how sound they are, amateur and pro. Vision center doesn't mean "Jack Squat" at that point. So much more can go wrong...or right.
Obviously not. Vision center isn't the same head/stick position for everybody - it's unique for each player.
pj
chgo
And all of those 8 pro players have been taught to do it that way by a pro instructor? Stumbled upon it themselves? Or came to you as the foremost authority on everything pool when they saw the incredible words of wisdom on the forum?
It may be unique for each player but why are there so many more not so good players and lousy ones compared to the pro players who may in fact not ever heard about a "VISION CENTER" either. Does vision center also determine how a rifle or a pistol is aimed at a target or do the front sights and rear sights dictate it for the eyes? (but then again, you've probably never shot a gun and are anti them)
If the vision center is so important and you're a strong proponent of it, list some of your pool wins and accomplishments over the years helped by it in addition to some students who reached greater heights.
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Like I said.
You don't need to have even heard of vision center to have one and use it.
pj
chgo
Since you've never done squat in the world of pool and I've never done squat either, vision center wasn't worth a damn in the entire scheme of things for either of us. I'm playing far less pool now than ever due to work but playing better than all the years before due to superior vision alignment specifically on CB and OB. The balls themselves determine what to see and do in a superior way than anything else for matching ball to ball at impact to go into a pocket. It's much clearer and more obvious
than anything else. We as players don't have to grope and guess for it. It's just right there with two crystal clear images.
It's not called VISION CENTER. It has a NEW NAME called CENTER to edge and edge to CENTER.
Vision center isn't an aiming technique - it's just a name for the head/stick position that works best for you for knowing where your stick is pointed.
I get it - if you can make it about CTE you might be able to talk about it.
pj
chgo
Spidey
if your vision center is off it could make the cte user not be at true center cueball when they pivot or go to center cue ball even tho they think they are at center cue ball
it could explain why some people have trouble with cte
just speculation on my part
if your vision center is off it could make the cte user not be at true center cueball when they pivot or go to center cue ball even tho they think they are at center cue ball
it could explain why some people have trouble with cte
just speculation on my part
IF you knew how to use CTE or anything about it, you would KNOW where your STICK IS POINTED is NOT WHAT YOU AIM WITH. It has NOTHING to do with the STICK AIMED ANYWHERE.
It's the ALIGNMENT OF THE CB TO THE OB with your EYES. The EYES LEAD and the BODY FOLLOWS.
The entire Aiming process can be done without a STICK in your hands. You do what needs to be DONE with the CB/OB visually and set the body...have someone hand you a stick without moving and place it at CCB and SHOOT.
I'm talking about it because that's JUST THE WAY IT IS. But you can't get it through your THICK ALL-KNOWING SKULL and
haven't for the LAST 25 YEARS.
Conversation NOW OVER!