Emily Frazer/ 9 ball Fix

I think it’s great we discuss these things. Matchroom should look for feedback from the players and the community in whatever manner they choose to engage.

I find it hilarious any individual unknown railbird would be sliding into Emily’s DMs to discuss these issues. Matchroom doesn’t owe any of us 1:1 feedback sessions. 😂
 
Nice write up, enjoyed your perspectives & understanding.

I look at this game, like I look at 18 different holes at Augusta/Masters.
In 9 ball after the break, up appears.....sand traps....obstacles...and each Rack has 6 water holes.
One's always working their way around stuff, it's not normal being in the fairway ''all the time''.

Thanks. I 8B can be that way too I suppose, I just prefer the faster nature of 9B.


When played by good players a race-to-15 doesn't much longer than a race-to-nine. IMO pros should play no less than races to 11.

Possibly 8 more games, in the pro world that's probably 30-40 minutes? In all honesty, that's too long. Pool players may enjoy but even I don't like watching a long match. The following video is on youtube, I haven't watched it yet because of how long it is. Eventually, I'll start it and watch a few racks, come back another day, watch a few more, etc.

The average - non-pool playing - viewer would not bother sitting there for that long. I do, however, like it when the race is increased the deeper in the tourney it gets. Start with race to 7, semi's maybe move to 9 or 11, and finals go to 11, 13, 15 - depending on how big/important the tourney is.
 
No question Matchroon would never try it, it would also require a strict time clock employed, maybe something like 25 second with limited extensions.
Personally I think you should let em play, if they are slow give em a warning, just like the PGA.
Not all table layouts can be effectively defended by only looking for 25 seconds.
Often one must walk all the way around the table to create other choices.
 
Personally I think you should let em play, if they are slow give em a warning, just like the PGA.
Not all table layouts can be effectively defended by only looking for 25 seconds.
Often one must walk all the way around the table to create other choices.
That’s what they did in snooker. The slowest player now averages just around 30ish seconds per shot. But there used to be players around 40 seconds per shot.
 
But you have to think before MR had the stationary printed, it figured it would lose money for the short term. We'll see where this goes.

They're definitely going to have to be smart about spending. Nobody's been able to make anything big out of it yet.
Most definitely. They showed some of their hand and when discussing the US Open a little while ago, when they said that they are looking at running a big Amateur tournament alongside the US Open in Atlantic City. With not everyone satisfied with the current large scale amateur tournaments in Vegas, I am sure they see potential to eat some of their lunch.
Growing the sport in Europe and especially the UK, with Sky Broadcasting the events, is I would assume their main target for monetization. Viewership is likely to be currently pretty small, however that audience will will be indexing high for males 25-44, which is a highly valuable audience.
 
Another thing that goes AGAINST pool this time every year. Another Memorial Day is upon us.... and most people have other things they want to do. Fish, camp, boating, etc. Many people I play with on a regular basis wont even think about pool agian until fall.

That is from the perspective of a Yankee. Down south might be the opposite. When it gets hot and humid, maybe more people look for INDOOR activities, in the air conditioning.
 
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I don't like alternate breaks because it prevents a player from getting in stroke.
The knee jerk reaction might be to think that, but when you think it out I think there is a better argument to be made for the opposite, that only alternate breaks ensures both players can stay in stroke and that winner breaks often keeps players in their chairs getting iced and out of stroke. With alternate break you will be at the table at least every other game which makes it difficult for any player to get out of stroke.
Alternate breaks does prevent that but, it also prevents the show of someone putting a 4 or 5 pack on someone - which is fun to watch and shouldn't be eliminated - think centuries or 147's in snooker - they're rare so they're fun to watch.
It does not prevent break and run packs. You can still run a pack of any length up to the amount of games need to win the match, they are just interspersed with the games where your opponent gets to break. In fact, in say a race to 9, you can run a 9 pack, and your opponent can run an 8 pack. Packs are not in any way stopped under alternate breaks. People make a much bigger deal about the fact that the pack is interspersed with the games where the opponent is breaking that what it really is. In winner breaks you have to wait between the games while they rack the balls. Sometimes you have to wait while they take a restroom or smoke break. There is always waits of varying lengths as it is, so alternate breaks is just a different reason to wait in between the games in a pack than the ones we already have, it really isn't that big of a deal, it just isn't what we are used to but we would get used to it pretty quick.
I believe CSI has the race to 4, race to 4, spot shot if tied - what a joke. I understand there's skill in the spot shot but if it continues then every pro will be so proficient at the spot shot it would be boring to watch. Imagine two pros who can make 20 spot shots in a row, boring.
Once the version of the modified spot shot they are using is determined to not be difficult enough they would obviously just back the object ball up even closer to the back rail and make it tougher. Or just add more levels of difficulty than they currently have (which is two) by starting to back the object ball up closer to the rail for additional difficulty levels beyond the two they already have.

I also wonder whether or not I would prefer a rotation of types of shots instead of just a single modified spot shot. Like the first shot is a modified spot shot, the second is a bank shot, the third is a jump shot, maybe one or two more types or variations of shots, and you rotate through them as many times as needed. Not sure how feasible it is or how much more I would actually like it but it does attempt to address the repetitiveness and add more excitement.
I like my idea of, in a race to 9, winner of lag gets the fist four breaks, opponent gets the next four breaks, and if it goes hill-hill then winner of lag gets the last break. I created a thread about that a long time ago but it got no traction (group think) but, I seriously think it could solve every issue people have with 9b.
I don't see the need since alternate breaks solves all the same issues even better, plus solves other issues and comes with additional benefits that your version doesn't. If they did a tournament your way though I would certainly check it out and give it a chance to confirm but I think I would much prefer winner or alternate breaks rather than something that tries to be some of both and as a result doesn't end up doing anything well and actually just ends up with the problems of both of them.
 
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It does not prevent break and run packs. You can still run a pack of any length up to the amount of games need to win the match, they are just interspersed with the games where your opponent gets to break. In fact, in say a race to 9, you can run a 9 pack, and your opponent can run an 8 pack. Packs are not in any way stopped under alternate breaks. People make a much bigger deal about the fact that the pack is interspersed with the games where the opponent is breaking that what it really is. In winner breaks you have to wait between the games while they rack the balls. Sometimes you have to wait while they take a restroom or smoke break. There is always waits of varying lengths as it is, so alternate breaks is just a different reason to wait in between the games in a pack than the ones we already have, it really isn't that big of a deal, it just isn't what we are used to but we would get used to it pretty quick.

The big difference is momentum. You don't really get to build any playing alternate break. Plus there's also the argument of not being able to make big comebacks playing alt. break (see Shane coming back from 10-3 v Mika at WPC).

I think an alternative that allows both of those things would be to play winner breaks until someone gets to the hill. Once a player gets to the hill, the trailing player gets all of the breaks. If it gets to hill-hill, relag for the final break.
 
The big difference is momentum. You don't really get to build any playing alternate break. Plus there's also the argument of not being able to make big comebacks playing alt. break (see Shane coming back from 10-3 v Mika at WPC).

I think an alternative that allows both of those things would be to play winner breaks until someone gets to the hill. Once a player gets to the hill, the trailing player gets all of the breaks. If it gets to hill-hill, relag for the final break.
I think the effects of momentum are exaggerated. Even if true, only one guy has it, while it is doing the exact opposite for the other guy, getting him cold and out of stroke so that when he comes to the table he is not at his best so if it is doing the exact opposite for one of them is there really a net benefit? Doesn't seem like there is. In any case alternate break puts more pressure on the players as they feel even more like they have to make the most of every trip to the table. Increased pressure, and ensuring that both players are more in stroke and are forced to give every last ounce of everything they have on every shot, both seem like good things to me.

As for the comebacks under alternate break, it has been covered before but a few points. First, big comebacks aren't very common in winner breaks either and in fact are pretty rare in the scheme of things. They are so few that we talk about them when they occur and remember them (remember that big one Kim Davenport made in the early 90's?), a recent example being SVB's comeback against Mika. It's not like they are happening every other match or even every other tournament. Second, that big comebacks aren't possible in alternate breaks is ludicrous. Anybody that says that can't watch much pool because we get to see it happen often enough with our own eyes, but logic alone tells you it can happen. The opponent managed to get way ahead didn't he? The same way the one guy was able to get big ahead is the same way the other guy can make a big comeback too. Third, the big come backs happen in alternate breaks what seems like just about as often, although there are obviously fewer overall simply because there are fewer alternate break events overall, but they seem to happen often enough under that format too so I don't know that the rate at which they happen under winner breaks is really all that much more. It sounds intuitive that they would but the anecdotal evidence doesn't seem to indicate a massive difference. It would be interesting if someone tracked it over a long period of time to see just how much difference there is. Fourth, to whatever extent there are less big comebacks in alternate breaks, you don't need them because alternate breaks keeps the matches much tighter and doesn't allow anybody to get a massive lead to begin with all that often. That results in a significantly greater percentage of the matches being close and exciting whereas in winner breaks a significant portion are lopsided and unexciting and where you end up losing all the excitement and much interest as soon as somebody gets a big lead. On a yearly basis is it really worth having thousands more lopsided matches that get boring as hell as soon as somebody gets a good lead just so you can have that one more match a year with a big comeback? Thousands more boring matches for one more exciting one just doesn't sound like a good trade off at all to me, especially when you can have thousands more exciting matches and only give up one exciting one.

To recap, big comebacks are rare to begin with in winner breaks, they still happen plenty often in alternate breaks, and they aren't needed much in alternate breaks to begin with because alternate breaks keeps most of the matches close and exciting unlike winner breaks where a big percentage, perhaps the majority, get to be lopsided snooze fests. What you give up to get that rare additional big comeback if that is even the case just doesn't seem to even be close to all that you are giving up in return.

I'm personally convinced that the big opposition to alternate breaks is that it just isn't what we are used to, and if it is all we had for a while to where we really got used to it being the way it is now most wouldn't want to go back. Every other major sport on earth has something along the lines of alternate breaks that ensures both sides get similar offensive possessions. I never hear anybody complaining about how the scoring team in football should be receiving the next kickoff and shouldn't have to turn over the ball to the other team until they have failed to score, and screw the other team if they never get an offensive possession, that would be "exciting". I never hear anybody complaining about how the scoring basketball team should keep possession of the ball every time they make a basket, and screw the other team if they never get an offensive possession or have to go a long period of time without an offensive possession, that would be "exciting". All the same arguments used for winner breaks in pool apply exactly the same to every other sport on earth and yet nobody is making them for any other sport, and the only reason we want the scoring side to retain offensive possession in pool is simply because it is the way it has always been and what we have been used to our whole live but as with every other sport alternate makes more sense and overall makes for a better and even more exciting game on net.

As far as your idea of winner breaks until it gets to the hill, and then the trailing player gets all breaks from there (except the where you lag for the last break if it goes hill hill), I hate the idea of any form of loser breaks. I am firmly against giving somebody some help just because they are behind. Why don't we just give the player that is behind the wild 8 spot (in 9 ball) until they get caught back up instead or also? Same thing as loser breaks in my mind, I just can't justify the fairness of it as they haven't earned it, and in fact not only was it not earned, but it is a handout that is rewarding failure. With alternate breaks, where both players get equal offensive chances, it can't be argued that it isn't fair as that is as fair as it possibly gets, and obviously both sides are entitled to participate because the whole point is to see who is the better player that day which can't be done unless both player's get equal offensive chances. With winner breaks you at least have the lame argument that they did something to earn the next break (they scored), although it still isn't the best format for determining the better player since somebody can be kept from even being able to participate and finding the better player at that moment is supposed to be the whole point of the match so winner breaks doesn't make the best sense either.

If you want to see who can put together the biggest packages then just do a "playing the ghost" tournament. If you want to see who is actually the better player that day between two players then do alternate break where there can be no argument against the fact that alternate breaks best does that. Under no circumstance though can I think of a good reason to use loser breaks to give unearned handouts and to reward failure. Since we are trying to find the best player alternate breaks is the format that makes the most sense, and it just so happens to come with a lot of other benefits too and has essentially no drawbacks other than it isn't what we are used to yet.
 
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How can/will MR get this nine ball game, right?
The below ideas have not worked, or other ideas, pros figure it out/adjust.

Cue ball break box.
9 ball location on the rack?
Breaking format?
Template?


Emily is thinking about this allot, her concern is to do something but not change the American game.

I sent her a FB message last week, from a players perspective and what I think is best for 9 ball and its rotation excitement.

Prior changes....all have proven to be ineffective.

Dave Isaacs, the Diamond table mechanic, set up my table specs....exactly the same as the US Open.
My pockets, 4.5'' with worn in cloth, not worn out, are waaaaaaaay more difficult than that 4.25'' pockets with new, slippery cloth in the pro events.

If I catch any part of the rail with some speed, the ball Never goes in, either hangs up, but most often dbls the pocket and lands left or right of the hole.

Here's the simplest and best way to keep the game as it's always been, and at the same time make it work, and STILL keep the 1 ball on the spot.

4'' Pockets for pro play.

The below picture is my table, with slightly worn cloth, it plays MUCH tougher than 4 1/4'' pockets on NEW CLOTH.
NO COMPARISON.....NONE


View attachment 643439
So your fix is tighter pockets with kinda of worn cloth?

Tighter pocket doesn't fix the game, so no to that.
kinda worn cloth is a nice idea, I feel it will play just like the new cloth of the 80's which was good.
 
Kinda worn cloth is a excellent idea. It will give us more to disagree on, how worn? Too worn? Not worn enough? Each table is different!

It’s a endless source of shit to grind on here and fight about. Lots of new arguments. Wonderful!

Let’s get that idea implemented asap!

What could be better?

Best
Fatboy
 
Kinda worn cloth is a excellent idea. It will give us more to disagree on, how worn? Too worn? Not worn enough? Each table is different!

It’s a endless source of shit to grind on here and fight about. Lots of new arguments. Wonderful!

Let’s get that idea implemented asap!

What could be better?

Best
Fatboy
What could be better you ask? How about an orange 5 ball with a purple stripe? :):):):):)
 
Kinda worn cloth is a excellent idea. It will give us more to disagree on, how worn? Too worn? Not worn enough? Each table is different!

It’s a endless source of shit to grind on here and fight about. Lots of new arguments. Wonderful!

Let’s get that idea implemented asap!

What could be better?

Best
Fatboy
like new jeans with holes and all worn in
 
Longer races are enjoyed by serious pool players, for the most part. But it's a snooze fest for the average viewer. Average viewer numbers are needed to get the money rolling in. Serious pool players are in low numbers, so the money wont come from that demographic. It's been tried over and over and has not worked. Matchroom, I believe, is stepping in the right direction.
I've watched hourS long tennis matches. I don't play tennis, but enjoy it allot. Wimbledon, French Open, US Open etc.
 
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