No Trent, I’m expressing my opinion. Just my opinion. I’m not the one claiming to dictate reality.
Is there such a thing as natural talent? Some say yes, I do not think there is?
- Thread starter tableroll
- Start date
tin man
let me ask you a question
dont you know many players who work very hard / really cant work any harder/ or put in more hours
yet never get to be champions?
i cant give you a specific player who has reached their ceiling
but i will say everyone has a ceiling.
Good question.
Most players aren’t champions and cannot or will not put in what it takes to get there. In these cases I would say they are capped by what they put in. Or, even more often, by the way they invest their budget of time and energy. But yes, I am not inclined to believe in a ‘effort cap’ far more readily that a work cap.
yes we agree on that,,,Perfect. I say we each try to find ours and don’t stop until we get there. Looks like we agree on that one!
.and there are many examples of players where it is said
" they never reached their potential ...they had so much talent"
I agree with you, if it helps...lol
I'll use myself as an example. I've been playing for ~35yrs in some shape or form. During that entire time I've been playing right handed. Not once have I put any actual time learning to shoot with my left. Does that mean I lacked the talent that Morra has...? All that said, this year I decided to play in a summer league, with one caveat. I will only shoot with my left hand. Well I can tell you that the first couple of games were hysterical. Fast forward 15 games of 'competition' and the rest of the league is concerned about if they'll be the victim of my first BnR. Like every other learned skill. It's not about talent. It's about effort AND correct methodology.
SomeDeadGuy
Member
I believe natural talent is a combination of passion combined with knowledge while developing skills early in their careers. I've always had the passion. If I had Youtube videos teaching me when I was young, my fundamentals would have been sooooo much better. Same in golf. Passion plus knowledge plus practice equals talent.
You're forgetting one more thing in your equation.... Genetics. Some people are just better wired when it comes to brain to muscle coordination.
Use this for an example... Some people just have natural Talent when it comes to playing the guitar. I've taken guitar lessons and I worked very hard at it, but I just reached a plateau and could not surpass it no matter how hard I tried. The fact is I will never have the talent that Roy Clark did no matter how much work I put into it. Roy Clark didn't get to where he was just by hard work, but that was a lot of it. He just has natural musical Talent. He could play anything with strings on it.
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I know you aren’t asking me but, there are plenty of people who work very hard, but at the wrong things. Effort is one thing but it needs to be directed properly otherwise you will be spinning your wheels on a plateau.
One example is someone who does drills every day but never drills that target their weaknesses. On the surface it’s structured practice but it’s not smart practice. I think that if you can clear a drill 50% of the time or more it’s a waste of your practice time.
BlueRaider
Registered
Agreed, and I think a lot of people fall into a trap of "refining" things they are already pretty good at and completely neglecting the parts of their games that give them trouble. Ego eventually becomes a problem in just about every pursuit in life, especially once some level of competence has been achieved.
It feels good to "succeed" when practicing and completing drills, but if you're succeeding over and over, you're not practicing the right stuff (similar to if you're winning most of the time against your competition, you aren't playing the right people).
It doesn't feel good to hold a magnifying glass up to your biggest weaknesses and A) reveal how truly weak you are and B) experience the failure and frustration that goes along with attempting to minimize those weaknesses or even turn them into a strength.
But that's the only way to truly get better. Get comfortable being uncomfortable.
Cameron and BlueRaider, you two said it perfectly. Success takes work, but it has to be the right work. If you want to become a great rock climber and spend 10 hours a day doing push ups it might not equate to world class ability. So someone who gave their best and didn't get there doesn't necessarily lack the elusive talent, they might just have lacked the right focus.
Like walking from New York to California, there is is no path to pool greatness that isn't a 3,000 mile walk, but there are a lot of directions where you can wander 50,000 miles and not get there. That doesn't mean that they only let talented people into CA.
Like walking from New York to California, there is is no path to pool greatness that isn't a 3,000 mile walk, but there are a lot of directions where you can wander 50,000 miles and not get there. That doesn't mean that they only let talented people into CA.
Absolutely, 100% there is such a thing a natural talent. Amongst probably a few other core things, here are two that are applicable directly to pool-
Kinesthetics.This is the awareness of where you body is in space, and what it is doing. This is a function of how well the brain interprets the signals coming from the limbs, and other parts of the body. People on the operating table who report "out of body experiences"? This is the kinesthetics function going haywire due to lack of oxygen, or in the case of brain surgery, direct stimulation of that portion of the brain. This literally makes the brain think their "consciousness" is floating outside of the body. This is a simple signalling error. Teenagers start stumbling over themselves during growth spurts, because the kinesthetics system is getting signal errors, or misinterpreting inconsistent signals from the muscles. If it can happen naturally during puberty, it can happen because of weak genetics.
Now think about people who were born with 100% accurate kinesthetics. They will intuitively know when they miss a shot, what their bodies were doing at the time, and they have a much more solid basis to know what to do to fix it... Which leads to #2..
Muscle memory. This is the ability of the muscles to "burn-in" repeated motions, building stronger neuronal connections through the brain related to that motion. Some people (like me) have weaker muscle memory, and as such, have to practice hours and hours in order to build the muscle memory, and then it fades fast, requiring more practice. And even then, if you have bad kinesthetics, the signals may still get crossed, causing huge amounts of inconsistency, even with loads of practice. Superpros almost invariably have nearly perfect muscle memory, and very very good kinesthetics. Otherwise.. Explain how the heck Bustamente can play as well as he does bridging a mile from the cue ball, and with that stroke?
As an aside, this muscle memory applies to playing of a musical instrument, as well. I see the same muscle memory issues when practicing guitar, as I do when trying to correct my pool stroke. I have seen stories in this very forum where someone mentions an extremely talented teenager who gave up the game to play guitar, as it got more girls, and became just as talented, extremely quickly. There is a physical reason for this. Stories abound of this and that guitar god who picked up a guitar and we're within months able to do things it took other players years to do.
Add to this, some people simply don't feel pressure the same, and don't dump a load of adrenaline in a dangerous situation. A good test of this is when you are driving down the road, and your car drifts a little to the center line just as another car is coming.. If you have an immediate adrenaline surge and your heart beats faster, then you probably are the type that feels immense pressure on the tough shot, hill-hill. To the point where your heart is beating out of your chest. That adrenaline surge seriously f*cks up fine motor control. Some folks, this "fight or flight" adrenaline surge gets worse as they age. Some, the response goes away completely, allowing them to play pretty damn sporty into their 50s. It's all genetic.
That's my scientific take on "natural talent". As a young, aggressive man who thought he could do anything, I too thought natural talent was a myth. What changed my mind was reading an old chess book in which a master player walked through the core brain mechanisms that absolutely put a limit on the ability of a chess player. One of those was pattern recognition. Another was ability to move pieces in their mind, and retain new positions in their head. These are both 100% genetic, and can only improve a minor amount if you "don't got it". He even laid some tests out for how to determine where one was on the scale. We KNOW that pattern recognition is either genetic, or biochemical, because of it's pronounced manifesting in people with certain mental illnesses.. Seeing patterns everywhere, even where they don't exist.
This led me to think about why there are "natural athletes" that can switch from one sport to another when young, and dominate in both, with minimal training. And I came to a personal determination that physical talent can very well limit top potential in many games/sports. But specific physical talents make it MUCH easier to cross over to new games that require the same basic physical talents.
Kinesthetics.This is the awareness of where you body is in space, and what it is doing. This is a function of how well the brain interprets the signals coming from the limbs, and other parts of the body. People on the operating table who report "out of body experiences"? This is the kinesthetics function going haywire due to lack of oxygen, or in the case of brain surgery, direct stimulation of that portion of the brain. This literally makes the brain think their "consciousness" is floating outside of the body. This is a simple signalling error. Teenagers start stumbling over themselves during growth spurts, because the kinesthetics system is getting signal errors, or misinterpreting inconsistent signals from the muscles. If it can happen naturally during puberty, it can happen because of weak genetics.
Now think about people who were born with 100% accurate kinesthetics. They will intuitively know when they miss a shot, what their bodies were doing at the time, and they have a much more solid basis to know what to do to fix it... Which leads to #2..
Muscle memory. This is the ability of the muscles to "burn-in" repeated motions, building stronger neuronal connections through the brain related to that motion. Some people (like me) have weaker muscle memory, and as such, have to practice hours and hours in order to build the muscle memory, and then it fades fast, requiring more practice. And even then, if you have bad kinesthetics, the signals may still get crossed, causing huge amounts of inconsistency, even with loads of practice. Superpros almost invariably have nearly perfect muscle memory, and very very good kinesthetics. Otherwise.. Explain how the heck Bustamente can play as well as he does bridging a mile from the cue ball, and with that stroke?
As an aside, this muscle memory applies to playing of a musical instrument, as well. I see the same muscle memory issues when practicing guitar, as I do when trying to correct my pool stroke. I have seen stories in this very forum where someone mentions an extremely talented teenager who gave up the game to play guitar, as it got more girls, and became just as talented, extremely quickly. There is a physical reason for this. Stories abound of this and that guitar god who picked up a guitar and we're within months able to do things it took other players years to do.
Add to this, some people simply don't feel pressure the same, and don't dump a load of adrenaline in a dangerous situation. A good test of this is when you are driving down the road, and your car drifts a little to the center line just as another car is coming.. If you have an immediate adrenaline surge and your heart beats faster, then you probably are the type that feels immense pressure on the tough shot, hill-hill. To the point where your heart is beating out of your chest. That adrenaline surge seriously f*cks up fine motor control. Some folks, this "fight or flight" adrenaline surge gets worse as they age. Some, the response goes away completely, allowing them to play pretty damn sporty into their 50s. It's all genetic.
That's my scientific take on "natural talent". As a young, aggressive man who thought he could do anything, I too thought natural talent was a myth. What changed my mind was reading an old chess book in which a master player walked through the core brain mechanisms that absolutely put a limit on the ability of a chess player. One of those was pattern recognition. Another was ability to move pieces in their mind, and retain new positions in their head. These are both 100% genetic, and can only improve a minor amount if you "don't got it". He even laid some tests out for how to determine where one was on the scale. We KNOW that pattern recognition is either genetic, or biochemical, because of it's pronounced manifesting in people with certain mental illnesses.. Seeing patterns everywhere, even where they don't exist.
This led me to think about why there are "natural athletes" that can switch from one sport to another when young, and dominate in both, with minimal training. And I came to a personal determination that physical talent can very well limit top potential in many games/sports. But specific physical talents make it MUCH easier to cross over to new games that require the same basic physical talents.
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I came across this and thought it was relevant,
irisreading.com
The gist is that kids have developing brains and more brain plasticity than adults and therefore can learn skills much faster than adults. Brains aren't fully developed until the age of 25, but this partly explains why starting earlier is better. I started playing pool when I was around 20 and I started playing guitar at 14. I've always reflected on how comparably easy learning guitar felt and it was likely due to the timing of picking up the hobby.
Why Children Learn Faster than Adults and How You Can Learn Their Tricks - Iris Reading
If in your "old" age you want to further your education quickly, you’ll want to take these tips from children and do as they do.
irisreading.com
The gist is that kids have developing brains and more brain plasticity than adults and therefore can learn skills much faster than adults. Brains aren't fully developed until the age of 25, but this partly explains why starting earlier is better. I started playing pool when I was around 20 and I started playing guitar at 14. I've always reflected on how comparably easy learning guitar felt and it was likely due to the timing of picking up the hobby.
Natural talent quantifies itself in different ways, having great vision, having great eye/hand coordination, being strong mentally, etc.
There is a top attainable gear by everybody, that gear is different for everyone in my opinion
Duh
There's no telling the percentage of work wasted, wasting time. There's a school that believes pool is simple to learn. I subscribe to this notion and keep on plowing. There is no equivalent to the breadth and depth of pool. Terms like champion quickly become irrelevant. (He's the guy that can out walk all the dummies) Can he play the pool? IDK. There seem to be no criteria except the win/lose stats.
I'd sub "hard" work with "THE" work. Those apparent winners are on shortcuts. Most players will lack the passage and alliances to navigate the the pro field. They run into the roadblocks and stymies the "winners" don't. They should stay in the rooms or home and figure out what it is about learning their shit and then learning it.
This is a 100% fact. You need to have a natural atheticism that few possess! When I was a kid in the late 80s/early 90s, I had such a passion for skateboarding. I got every copy of Thrashing and Transworld. I watched every skate movie I could. My parents were kind enough to buy me a Tony Hawk board, tracker trucks (I think) and some good wheels. I had the skater shoes and gear. I watched all of the Powell Videos that I could find to rent at our local Video Rental stores. My best friend had a Vision Street Wear GATOR board. We spent hours every day skating. I was the little chubby kid who could ride (as in, roll across the ground and keep my balance) really good, and could keep up doing that...but even after a year could barely ollie, and just had zero athleticism/ coordination betwen my brain and legs/feet to do anything. I had an overabundance of natural hand-eye coordination, so I can't complain.
We went to a huge skatepark in Nashville one day in maybe 1990, and after watching some other kids on the ramp I decided to give it a go. I give myself an A for guts (or stupidity)...but I went down hard, knocked the breath out of me. I was laying on the ramp trying to breath as I felt like I had broken my back. Some of the younger skaters were yelling "Get the f off of the ramp, poser!" (and I WAS, but just didn't know it), but one of the best skaters at the park came down off of the huge half pipe, and helped me off (which quieted the others) and helped me compose myself (once I could breath I started crying). He was really cool. I went inside, called my mom to come get me, and said "F this"... that was the end of my skating career. LOL! I had other friends that were killing it after a FEW MONTHs. I still loved skating as a sport - but you either have it or you don't. I didn't even have a 10th of it for skating, LOL. I have a good friend who is in his 40s like me. He has a mini ramp in his backyard and still skates everyday..and posts videos to facebook. He still has it...and can still take the spills without needing an ambulance!
MajorMiscue
Democat
Ever just toss the balls on the table and just shoot? Turn off the conscious process and allow the brain to function without interference? I find I often shoot my best when I get out of the way and let the onboard computer go at it. If this seems very foreign to you, you may not possess a lot of natural talent.