Low deflection shaft theory question

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Shooter1

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I have a couple of old 314 pre cat shafts and one 314 cat shaft I've used for many years. My understanding of LD shafts is primarily to reduce weight from the end of the shaft. Manufacturers use super short ferrules, then drill the first inch or so of the shaft under the ferrule and fill it with foam, etc all in an attempt to lighten the tip end of the cue. LD shafts are typically smaller in tip OD as well I believe.

What if any does the pie shaped technology, (gluing pie shaped pcs together then turning down the shaft) do to contribute to the LD performance of the shaft? I guess my question is if you had a one pc maple shaft and also a pie shaped shaft that both have the same LD technology applied to the tip end of the cue, would they play different or have a different feel to them?

Thanks
 
Shooter1 said:
I have a couple of old 314 pre cat shafts and one 314 cat shaft I've used for many years. My understanding of LD shafts is primarily to reduce weight from the end of the shaft. Manufacturers use super short ferrules, then drill the first inch or so of the shaft under the ferrule and fill it with foam, etc all in an attempt to lighten the tip end of the cue. LD shafts are typically smaller in tip OD as well I believe.

What if any does the pie shaped technology, (gluing pie shaped pcs together then turning down the shaft) do to contribute to the LD performance of the shaft? I guess my question is if you had a one pc maple shaft and also a pie shaped shaft that both have the same LD technology applied to the tip end of the cue, would they play different or have a different feel to them?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Zero, it's the first 5-9 inches of end mass that matters, and the first few that make the most difference. The material makes almost no difference, just the end mass.

I liked the idea of LD and didn't like the hollow feel, so I designed my own using a standard maple shaft. This was more than a decade ago and I still play with the same shaft. It has a pivot point at about 15 inches.

Jaden

I've actually been working on some other more advanced LD shafts but can't discuss them for obvious reasons.
 
Jaden said:
Zero, it's the first 5-9 inches of end mass that matters, and the first few that make the most difference. The material makes almost no difference, just the end mass.

I liked the idea of LD and didn't like the hollow feel, so I designed my own using a standard maple shaft. This was more than a decade ago and I still play with the same shaft. It has a pivot point at about 15 inches.

Jaden

I've actually been working on some other more advanced LD shafts but can't discuss them for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
Good for you Jaden, Keep on keepin on ... I know when I was playing I always wanted to try a liquid weight and LD shaft with Kamui s soft... Just something different after lots of years same old... Guy
 
Jaden said:
Zero, it's the first 5-9 inches of end mass that matters, and the first few that make the most difference. The material makes almost no difference, just the end mass.

I liked the idea of LD and didn't like the hollow feel, so I designed my own using a standard maple shaft. This was more than a decade ago and I still play with the same shaft. It has a pivot point at about 15 inches.

Jaden

I've actually been working on some other more advanced LD shafts but can't discuss them for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
Hi Jaden. You seem to know about shafts. If you have hit with some of the carbon fibers out there, what is number one and number 2 in your opinion?
 
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As mentioned above, the pie/lamination allows the use of either cheaper or not so great wood and being able to basically make it straighter/more uniform than sometimes the best maple shafts.

As far as the feel and such, that’s gonna be fairly subjective and such.
 
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I'm pretty sure the pie shaped shafts don't affect the deflection properties. However, a pie shaped shaft is less likely to warp than a standard maple shaft. The grain patterns are alternated on each "piece of the pie" so that the two adjacent pieces are fighting against each other. One "piece of pie" might want to warp to the left, while another wants to warp to the right. In the end, it all balances out and the overall shaft stays straight.

Sheets of plywood work the same way. With plywood, there are several thin sheets of wood glued together. They alternate the wood grain pattern on each sheet before gluing together to make the overall plywood sheet extremely stable.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, I think Predator's wedge-laminated construction was about using lower grade wood without warpage. The same may be true of flat laminated shafts.
Click to expand...

This is why manufactures saw up wood and the glue it back together. They can use cheaper wood, and they can "run it through" the factory faster (less inventory, no waiting a week between manufacturing steps). And after this manufacturing, a bunch of pie sections glued together is less likely to warp. Even when you do stupid things like wiping the shaft down with a wet towel.

Back to LD-ed-ness:: The first 5-7 inches of the shaft is where LD happens. The lighter this end-mass is the lower the deflection. A 11mm solid maple shaft is LD in the same sense 314-k is LD.

Why ~6" ? Well the speed of sound (pressure) moving through the shaft only gets ~6" down the shaft in the millisecond the tip is in contact with CB. Thus only that first ~6" has any bearing on deflection of the CB, the rest of the shaft is irrelevant to this physical phenomenon.
 
MitchAlsup said:
... Why ~6" ? Well the speed of sound (pressure) moving through the shaft only gets ~6" down the shaft in the millisecond the tip is in contact with CB. Thus only that first ~6" has any bearing on deflection of the CB, the rest of the shaft is irrelevant to this physical phenomenon.
Click to expand...
A small detail is that there are two "speeds of sound" for the shaft. The most important one for play is for the compression wave along the main axis. That is about 4 meters in a millisecond. That's what gets the energy of the stick into the ball.

For squirt the important speed is the speed that side-to-side wiggles move down the cue. That is much slower, down around a few inches in a millisecond. (Technically, this is speed of transverse waves.)
 
Shooter1 said:
I have a couple of old 314 pre cat shafts and one 314 cat shaft I've used for many years. My understanding of LD shafts is primarily to reduce weight from the end of the shaft. Manufacturers use super short ferrules, then drill the first inch or so of the shaft under the ferrule and fill it with foam, etc all in an attempt to lighten the tip end of the cue. LD shafts are typically smaller in tip OD as well I believe.

What if any does the pie shaped technology, (gluing pie shaped pcs together then turning down the shaft) do to contribute to the LD performance of the shaft? I guess my question is if you had a one pc maple shaft and also a pie shaped shaft that both have the same LD technology applied to the tip end of the cue, would they play different or have a different feel to them?

Thanks
Click to expand...

The multi part design was never for LD but rather for "radial consistency" (I used that in quotes since I have no idea how much of that is marketing BS and how much it actually affects the shaft performance. It gets rid of the single grain orientation so the flex is the same no matter which way you orient the shaft. And as others pointed out, you can use a lower grade of wood then as well. I have several one piece maple LD shafts that deflect as low as many of the milti-part wood shafts.
 
Shooter1 said:
I have a couple of old 314 pre cat shafts and one 314 cat shaft I've used for many years. My understanding of LD shafts is primarily to reduce weight from the end of the shaft. Manufacturers use super short ferrules, then drill the first inch or so of the shaft under the ferrule and fill it with foam, etc all in an attempt to lighten the tip end of the cue. LD shafts are typically smaller in tip OD as well I believe.

What if any does the pie shaped technology, (gluing pie shaped pcs together then turning down the shaft) do to contribute to the LD performance of the shaft? I guess my question is if you had a one pc maple shaft and also a pie shaped shaft that both have the same LD technology applied to the tip end of the cue, would they play different or have a different feel to them?

Thanks
Click to expand...
With my setup I was able to reuse my worn out shafts.
Yrs ago I had and extension made, to attach to my second shaft if needed.

I cut back all the 30+ yr old wood shafts.
That piece, I insert between the handle/shaft, keeping the cue length the same.
The Shaft is Allot stiffer, and the extension has added Allot more forward weight.
 

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Bob Jewett said:
A small detail is that there are two "speeds of sound" for the shaft. The most important one for play is for the compression wave along the main axis. That is about 4 meters in a millisecond. That's what gets the energy of the stick into the ball.

For squirt the important speed is the speed that side-to-side wiggles move down the cue. That is much slower, down around a few inches in a millisecond. (Technically, this is speed of transverse waves.)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification.
 
hang-the-9 said:
The multi part design was never for LD but rather for "radial consistency"
Click to expand...
Patrick Johnson said:
It's all marketing BS (intentional or not).
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BS in function or not. The real truth is that the pie shape does provide the opprotunity for uniform grain structure that you cannot achieve with a solid piece of wood. Wood bends differently based on how the grain is orientated.

Not saying it makes a difference. Just that the marketing jargon is rooted in aspect that does separate it from regular shafts.
 
Island Drive said:
With my setup I was able to reuse my worn out shafts.
Yrs ago I had and extension made, to attach to my second shaft if needed.

I cut back all the 30+ yr old wood shafts.
That piece, I insert between the handle/shaft, keeping the cue length the same.
The Shaft is Allot stiffer, and the extension has added Allot more forward weight.
Click to expand...
So, you play with a mid cue extension made from a piece of an old shaft? You say a shaft with an extension feels a lot stiffer? How long is the mid cue extension?
 
&7 stud said....
''So, you play with a mid cue extension made from a piece of an old shaft?

No, Dave Kikel in 89 made me that piece, that I would leave attached to my other shaft during match play, just in case I needed that extra ''reach''.

I am 6'6''



5'' is the length of the insert/extension and the amount of cut back from the 30 yr old shaft.
The extra pin and sleeve within the extension piece add weight & also moves the balance forward.
 
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