Is It CTE or ETC? It Doesn't Matter

[BC21]

Seems like it would be easier to just keep recognizing the system that you used during the repetition to learn the shot

Can't just turn off the expanding mind. Repetition automatically builds connections in the brain that allow you to recognize shots and know how to hit them, how to know when you're lined up correctly, etc... The same process works with baseball, tennis, golf....everything that involves hand-eye coordination and muscle memory.

 

[BC21]

Didn’t you say a while ago that you were going to start using your system on more shots. I believe a conversation with a better player led you to that decision

Funny thing, that better player you mentioned (Fargo score over 700), said that experience is the #1 tool used for aiming. I agreed, but added that it doesn't mean aiming systems aren't valuable and helpful.

For less experienced players, a good aiming system is an excellent tool, especially if it can reduce the typical amount of time needed to build solid aiming skills through old school trial and error.

This great player tossed a few balls on the table, asked me to show him the Poolology system. So I did. Then he said something like, "you don't have to do that to know where to aim". I said of course not, I don't have to for the vast majority of shots, because I have plenty of experience. But a less experienced player can't rely on experience they don't have, and that's where the system comes into play.

Anyway, he asked me to use my judgement to quickly decide where to aim on a particular shot, using fractional aiming. I'll call straight-in a 0 shot, a 3/4 ball is a #2, a 1/2 ball a #4 and a 1/4 ball a #6. So I'm just labeling the the eighths as whole numbers.

He asked, is it a 4? I said no...a little thinner. He asked, so it's a 5? I looked at the shot, lined my body up for a #5 aim, then told him it was a little thicker than a 5, maybe just a quarter of a tip thicker. He smiled and said, see...you already know where to aim. I laughed and said, once again, "that's because I have experience".

Then we talked about how players first learn how to aim, the different methods most of started out using.
Afterwords he told me he wished he had had my system a few years ago when he really started getting into pool. It likely would've been a great shortcut for developing his aiming skills.

And that's what aiming is - a developed skill. You simply have to know that your body is aligned in accordance with what you're seeing. And it doesn't matter if you're seeing one line of aim, a ghost ball, a contact point and parallel line, CTE/CTA lines, or whatever... The key is knowing/recognizing what your eyes are seeing, then allowing your body to follow.

 

[Renegade_56]

When you say CTE "does work", what do you mean exactly? That a player can use it successfully? Or something more?

pj
chgo

Where did I say that? Read it again. Just prove it doesn't then put it to bed. The only thing I implied was that if you could prove it doesn't work you can put the argument to rest once and for all. That could also be implied to mean that if you cannot prove it doesn't work, you really have no argument any more.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Can't just turn off the expanding mind. Repetition automatically builds connections in the brain that allow you to recognize shots and know how to hit them, how to know when you're lined up correctly, etc... The same process works with baseball, tennis, golf....everything that involves hand-eye coordination and muscle memory.

And pro players in those sports go into slumps. Sometimes for prolonged periods of time. What happened with those automatic connections?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

It's implied by his "challenge" question.

pj
chgo

No, you implied.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Where did I say that? Read it again. Just prove it doesn't then put it to bed. The only thing I implied was that if you could prove it doesn't work you can put the argument to rest once and for all. That could also be implied to mean that if you cannot prove it doesn't work, you really have no argument any more.

In this years-long "conversation", "CTE works" has meant two different things:
(1) players can use CTE effectively
(2) CTE works without feel, as claimed

Those are often confused, so it helps to clarify upfront. As is pretty well known in these parts, I agree with (1) and disagree with (2).

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

And that's what aiming is - a developed skill. You simply have to know that your body is aligned in accordance with what you're seeing. And it doesn't matter if your seeing one line of aim, a ghost ball, a contact point and parallel line, CTE/CTA lines, or whatever... The key is knowing/recognizing what your eyes are seeing, then allowing your body to follow.

The eyes lead and the body follows. That’s correct and I guarantee that Stan has the most expansive knowledge of how the eyes are used in aiming. CTE as developed by Stan is a complete visual system like no other imo.

 

[cookie man]

And you don't think I need to know what you mean by "work" in order to "prove it doesn't work"?

Does "works" mean players can use it effectively or does it mean it works without feel, as claimed? Those are the two definitions that have been confused in the past.

pj
chgo

Word games. Follow the directions exactly for a 15 outside and tell us exactly what’s wrong in your opinion. Don’t ask for an explanation of a 15 outside for certainty you know CTE inside and out with the way you post about it

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Word games. Follow the directions exactly for a 15 outside and tell us exactly what’s wrong in your opinion. Don’t ask for an explanation of a 15 outside for certainty you know CTE inside and out with the way you post about it

I know quite a bit about CTE from what I've picked up here and there, but I've never tried to use it. I'm sure it's used effectively by the players who like it, but it's not for me.

But I don't have to even know its name to know that it can't work without feel as claimed, because that's logically implausible. Stan himself called CTE "from another dimension" and "not supposed to be" - so he at least gets that its claims are... unusual. And since that claim is central to CTE's claim to fame, it's inevitable that it'll be questioned and discussed unless Stan's the forum moderator.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

And pro players in those sports go into slumps. Sometimes for prolonged periods of time. What happened with those automatic connections?

The connections are still there. Unfortunately, performing well requires more than just our subconscious synaptic connections. Our conscious mind and our emotions (endocrine system) must also be working smoothly with those synaptic connections/networks.

Here is an excerpt from my new book... the chapter is titled, "You Can't Be on Fire All the Time"....

"Trying too hard is a sure way of allowing too much conscious effort to sabotage our performance, because peak performance is best handled by our subconscious thought process, not conscious effort. I’m not saying conscious effort isn’t used during performance. I’m saying too much conscious effort can ruin performance.

For instance, being in the zone (playing at peak performance) is like riding a wave. It requires the perfect balance between conscious effort and subconscious programming. What we consciously see and think prompts subconscious networks (developed muscle memory and fine motor skills). Too much conscious effort can rob the subconscious of doing what it does best. Instead of simply riding the wave and enjoying it, we tend to start analyzing how we’re doing it, and the next thing we know we’re upside‐down, crashing to shore."

 

[straightline]

Word games. Follow the directions exactly for a 15 outside and tell us exactly what’s wrong in your opinion. Don’t ask for an explanation of a 15 outside for certainty you know CTE inside and out with the way you post about it

What is the range of shot angles a 15 outside encompasses?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What is the range of shot angles a 15 outside encompasses?

Good question to start with.

A range of about 7.5 degrees, either 7.5-15 degrees or 15-22.5 degrees (depending on which direction the “outside” pivot goes). This is true for each CTE solution and gets to the heart of the question - how does CTE “take you to” the specific angle within that 7.5 degree range for the specific shot you’re trying to make?

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The connections are still there. Unfortunately, performing well requires more than just our subconscious synaptic connections. Our conscious mind and our emotions (endocrine system) must also be working smoothly with those synaptic connections/networks.

Here is an excerpt from my new book... the chapter is titled, "You Can't Be on Fire All the Time"....

"Trying too hard is a sure way of allowing too much conscious effort to sabotage our performance, because peak performance is best handled by our subconscious thought process, not conscious effort. I’m not saying conscious effort isn’t used during performance. I’m saying too much conscious effort can ruin performance.

For instance, being in the zone (playing at peak performance) is like riding a wave. It requires the perfect balance between conscious effort and subconscious programming. What we consciously see and think prompts subconscious networks (developed muscle memory and fine motor skills). Too much conscious effort can rob the subconscious of doing what it does best. Instead of simply riding the wave and enjoying it, we tend to start analyzing how we’re doing it, and the next thing we know we’re upside‐down, crashing to shore."

If it's all in writing and said so eloquently, it must be true. A lot of "feel good" stuff there but I don't know how much of it is really applicable to us on a pool forum on a daily basis. Most of what you wrote applies to top level pro players who do get in a zone and play at peak performance for their livelihood in tournaments or high stakes money games.

We on forums, for the most part, live in our own Walter Mitty worlds of make-believe success and skill level that doesn't amount to much of diddly squat when it comes to being at peak performance. Day in and day out high-level play has different standards and meanings for different people since most of us still work for a living. So, what counts more...playing pool at the highest level, or doing the best we can to earn max dollars for our current lifestyles and life after retirement?

League play or playing in tournaments regularly gives a person something to gauge their skill level but for the most part there are no real negative consequences other than not winning. Even at the highest pro level in all sports you lose more often than you win. My reality checks come when I visit Allen Hopkins at his home. I might be riding the crest of my wave for a couple of weeks in a row, but it soon comes crashing down to a little ripple after he gets done with my high riding cocky ass. What it boils down to is you really don't know how good the game can be played until you actually get on the front line with a champion pro player.

What I do know after playing for 30 years and being as dedicated as I could by playing almost daily and learning multiple
aiming systems from top instructors is what works very good under pressure, what doesn't work as good, and what is easiest to use and visualize to run as many balls as possible now that I don't have the time to play daily based on what I do work wise.

It's not about the mental aspect. It's pretty much about the aiming system and touch for the speed needed to get around the table for clear shots and the correct angles. What works best for me is CTE and a sprinkle of Shiskabob.

Nobody, NOBODY who hasn't physically put in the time to thoroughly learn and implement these methods can speak about their effectiveness for accuracy and consistency. NOBODY!

That having been said, congratulations on your book.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I know quite a bit about CTE from what I've picked up here and there, but I've never tried to use it. I'm sure it's used effectively by the players who like it, but it's not for me.

But I don't have to even know its name to know that it can't work without feel as claimed, because that's logically implausible. Stan himself called CTE "from another dimension" and "not supposed to be" - so he at least gets that its claims are... unusual. And since that claim is central to CTE's claim to fame, it's inevitable that it'll be questioned and discussed unless Stan's the forum moderator.

pj
chgo

In 1998 you were an EXPERT in pool telling others that "FEEL" wasn't the answer to anything. But now, 24 years later and still an
expert, FEEL plays a part in all shots and MUST be there to make something work. My take on it is you've gotten more STUPID over the years. Here's another one of your "Pat JOHNSONISMS" regarding FEEL sent to me by a person who was there at the time. I think you've gone in this direction because it's far easier to cast doubt about your CTE obsession that's taken over your brain and life. Btw, this is actually a very good post that makes sense.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.billiard
From: Patrick Johnson <pjm...@concentric.net>
Date: 1998/12/08
Subject: Re: Aiming Technique
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author

Dale W. Baker wrote:

> David,

> If this method works for you, so be it. I don't believe there are too
> many players in this forum that will advocate such a method.

This variation on the "ghost ball" method of aiming is discussed fairly
frequently here, and I recall several posters being in favor of it. It
doesn't have a particularly bad reputation that I know of, though it's
not my preferred method because I like to aim more directly at the
object ball contact point.

> The aiming method should be by "feel". You get a sense for the target, and shoot.

I don't agree. It's true that many players aim by "feel," but that
doesn't mean that every player "should" aim this way. And how is
anybody supposed to follow these instructions? "Get a sense for the
target and shoot?" What does that mean to anybody but you? Is it like
"You'll know it when you see it?"

I think a player should have an idea of what he's aiming at, and what
he's aiming at it. For instance, I aim the contact point on the cue
ball (which I have to imagine, because it's on the other side of the cue
ball) at the contact point on the object ball. To help me do this
accurately, I aim the cue stick at the point it would be touching on the
"ghost ball" (this is the imaginary ball sitting in the spot the cue
ball will occupy when it hits the object ball) as if I was shooting the
same shot with the two balls frozen together. (Of course, I adjust all
this for the combined effect of squirt, swerve and throw).

By the way, this isn't a complicated calculation of some kind that I do
while I'm aiming. I just try to point something (my stick and the cue
ball) at something (the ghost ball and object ball), rather than just
"feel" it. It sounds like David's trying to do that, too, and I say
it's the right thing to try to do.


Pat Johnson
Chicago

 

[BC21]

If it's all in writing and said so eloquently, it must be true. A lot of "feel good" stuff there but I don't know how much of it is really applicable to us on a pool forum on a daily basis. Most of what you wrote applies to top level pro players who do get in a zone and play at peak performance for their livelihood in tournaments or high stakes money games.
......

It applies to everyone who performs a skill that requires hand-eye coordination and muscle memory, regardless of their skill level. It's called regression to the mean. Sometimes we play better than our average and sometimes we play worse. The only difference between a pro and a non-pro is this: For a pro, the difference between their best and worst performance level is very slight, due to their high degree of consistency. For a non-pro, for most of us here in the forum anyway, the difference between our best and worst is very noticeable, due to our lack of consistency and our lack of proper skill development.

Skill development is more or less the physical mechanics, while consistency is a combination of physical mechanics plus mental and emotional stability/control. Pros usually have all of these elements working in sync very well. The rest of us tend to struggle with one or more. We either have weak or inconsistent mechanics or a weak or inconsistent mental or emotional state of mind - we often try too hard (too much conscious thought) or we let or nerves or the slightest distractions sabotage our game.

And it doesn't matter what aiming method any of us use on a pool table, because this applies to everyone who performs, regardless of the type of performance - sports, music, the arts, etc...

 

[SpiderWebComm]

It applies to everyone who performs a skill that requires hand-eye coordination and muscle memory, regardless of their skill level. It's called regression to the mean. Sometimes we play better than our average and sometimes we play worse. The only difference between a pro and a non-pro is this: For a pro, the difference between their best and worst performance level is very slight, due to their high degree of consistency. For a non-pro, for most of us here in the forum anyway, the difference between our best and worst is very noticeable, due to our lack of consistency and our lack of proper skill development.

OK, I'll go with this.

Skill development is more or less the physical mechanics, while consistency is a combination of physical mechanics plus mental and emotional stability/control. Pros usually have all of these elements working in sync very well. The rest of us tend to struggle with one or more. We either have weak or inconsistent mechanics or a weak or inconsistent mental or emotional state of mind - we often try too hard (too much conscious thought) or we let or nerves or the slightest distractions sabotage our game.

It goes beyond that, and you left it out completely. And I'm going to use Pat Johnson's favorite word because in this case it REALLY applies. FEEL!! (Touch). They have incredible FEEL for how hard or soft to strike the CB with speed and spin to get it at the perfect angle for the remaining balls on the table planned in advance. It has nothing to do with the AIMING PART as far as where to hit the CB or have it impact on the OB. THAT IS ALL VISUAL!

When Hopkins and I get together, our game is always one pocket. Occasionally, I can win a game here and there. But the reason why I can't win more often is because of his FEEL for speed and english that has me completely stymied and blocked behind another ball or balls with nowhere to go. He's like a sadist laughing his ass off when he does it multiple times in a row
after picking off one or two balls for points and then hiding the CB for more helpless suffering on my part.

But it doesn't matter WHAT the game is...9-ball, 8-ball; 14.1; rotation...his FEEL for CB control and ability to see the layout of all the balls on the table in advance along with where the CB needs to be for each shot is something underdeveloped for me. Yeah, I can go two or three balls and more but then get out of line and it's over when he comes back to the table.

This is all when FEEL comes into play. Not in the aiming part or the planning in advance part or emotional part. It also isn't mind over matter and controlling emotions. It's like a pro golfer on the putting green in a big tournament. They envision the line from ball to cup...read the break...get an idea of the line to compensate for the break, and then set up to the ball for the stroke and FEEL how hard or soft to hit it for the distance and break as the stroke is being made.

 

[cookie man]

OK, I'll go with this.

It goes beyond that, and you left it out completely. And I'm going to use Pat Johnson's favorite word because in this case it REALLY applies. FEEL!! (Touch). They have incredible FEEL for how hard or soft to strike the CB with speed and spin to get it at the perfect angle for the remaining balls on the table planned in advance. It has nothing to do with the AIMING PART as far as where to hit the CB or have it impact on the OB. THAT IS ALL VISUAL!

When Hopkins and I get together, our game is always one pocket. Occasionally, I can win a game here and there. But the reason why I can't win more often is because of his FEEL for speed and english that has me completely stymied and blocked behind another ball or balls with nowhere to go. He's like a sadist laughing his ass off when he does it multiple times in a row
after picking off one or two balls for points and then hiding the CB for more helpless suffering on my part.

But it doesn't matter WHAT the game is...9-ball, 8-ball; 14.1; rotation...his FEEL for CB control and ability to see the layout of all the balls on the table in advance along with where the CB needs to be for each shot is something underdeveloped for me. Yeah, I can go two or three balls and more but then get out of line and it's over when he comes back to the table.

This is all when FEEL comes into play. Not in the aiming part or the planning in advance part or emotional part. It also isn't mind over matter and controlling emotions. It's like a pro golfer on the putting green in a big tournament. They envision the line from ball to cup...read the break...get an idea of the line to compensate for the break, and then set up to the ball for the stroke and FEEL how hard or soft to hit it for the distance and break as the stroke is being made.

This is the truth right here.

 

[BC21]

OK, I'll go with this.

It goes beyond that, and you left it out completely. And I'm going to use Pat Johnson's favorite word because in this case it REALLY applies. FEEL!! (Touch). They have incredible FEEL for how hard or soft to strike the CB with speed and spin to get it at the perfect angle for the remaining balls on the table planned in advance. It has nothing to do with the AIMING PART as far as where to hit the CB or have it impact on the OB. THAT IS ALL VISUAL!

When Hopkins and I get together, our game is always one pocket. Occasionally, I can win a game here and there. But the reason why I can't win more often is because of his FEEL for speed and english that has me completely stymied and blocked behind another ball or balls with nowhere to go. He's like a sadist laughing his ass off when he does it multiple times in a row
after picking off one or two balls for points and then hiding the CB for more helpless suffering on my part.

But it doesn't matter WHAT the game is...9-ball, 8-ball; 14.1; rotation...his FEEL for CB control and ability to see the layout of all the balls on the table in advance along with where the CB needs to be for each shot is something underdeveloped for me. Yeah, I can go two or three balls and more but then get out of line and it's over when he comes back to the table.

This is all when FEEL comes into play. Not in the aiming part or the planning in advance part or emotional part. It also isn't mind over matter and controlling emotions. It's like a pro golfer on the putting green in a big tournament. They envision the line from ball to cup...read the break...get an idea of the line to compensate for the break, and then set up to the ball for the stroke and FEEL how hard or soft to hit it for the distance and break as the stroke is being made.

FEEL can also described as that moment when you know that your body is aligned in accordance with what you're seeing. That type of "feel" is called proprioception.

Sometimes we feel dead on, and sometimes we feel off a little. We don't visually recognize that our body is slightly misaligned - we feel it, or sense it. And sometimes we don't feel it or sense it very well.

Sometimes we can feel on and be off, while other times we feel off but we're really spot on. That's where the conscious mind isn't quite in tune with the subconscious networks that our vision is triggering. From pool to golf or tennis or whatever, it's all the same.

Here's the basic sequence of steps that occur in order for us to perform anything that involves hand-eye coordination and muscle memory:

1. Conscious effort: We look at or see the task that needs to happen.

2. Subconscious reaction: The body begins to move into position to perform the task.

3. Conscious effort: In the working area of the mind we double-check or evaluate that our body is positioned or aligned properly to perform the task. (This is the "feel" part.)

4. Subconscious reaction:If step 3 is a thumbs up, perform the task as programmed (pool stroke, golf swing, throwing a ball, swinging a tennis racquet, etc...) If step 3 is a thumbs down, or unclear, repeat step 1 and see if a slightly different subconscious reaction/program gets pulled up.

All of this happens in a fraction of a second. But if the conscious mind isn't fully focused on the task, or if our vision isn't working at its best, the performance is stalled, or it occurs with poor or no double-checking or evaluating what the subconscious offered up.

And the subconscious isn't always accurate. It is simply reacting to what we see and hear and feel, sending programmed action to the working area of the mind at lightning speed to match the situation we're facing. If the working area isn't cluttered with needless thoughts and emotions, the conscious mind does a great job ensuring that all is good to go before allowing any action to take place. But if you're thinking about the last thing your wife said, or the last shot you missed, or how stressful work has been lately, or what some onlooker is going to think about this shot, the subconscious program doesn't get checked very well, and it may or may not be the right action needed for the task.

There's a reason why sports psychology has become very popular among so many pro athletes - it's effective. The quailty of the communication that occurs between conscious thought and subconscious networks/programs is what determines the quality of our performance.

 

[cookie man]

What is the range of shot angles a 15 outside encompasses?

There is not a defined set of angles. The visual perceptions do that for you.
Please describe how to execute a 15 outside alignment.

 

[straightline]

There is not a defined set of angles. The visual perceptions do that for you.
Please describe how to execute a 15 outside alignment.

I'm not looking for a specific set of angles, just the range.