Is It CTE or ETC? It Doesn't Matter

[SpiderWebComm]

This isn't true, in bold.

Everyone has proprioception. It isn't a special gift that only people with a heightened sense of awareness possess.

We all have receptors in our our muscles and tendons, and these receptors communicate info to our brain that allows us to know where our body parts are positioned without having to look at them. The receptors are called proprioceptors. Anyway, it's how we can walk or tie our shoes or throw a ball accurately, all without having to actually focus or look at our legs or arms or feet or hands.

Some people have better proprioception than others, but we all have a pretty good dose of it already. Balancing excercises can help improve your proprioception, but unless you're planning to walk tightropes or something like that, there's not much need for improvement, for most people anyway. Of course, those who are clumsy or have lousy coordination could benefit from strengthening their proprioception.

So, in other words, if a person has 3 months of playing pool under their belt, they'll have the same level of proprioception regarding the game as you do. Is that correct?

Let's look at something as an example to see if we have this straight. You're over the CB lining it up with the OB to make what would be between a 1/2 ball and 3/4 ball cut using contact points. You begin fidgeting with the head going up and down, side to side like a lizard and the ass cheeks start going back and forth, side to side like a Beagle happy to see his owner coming into the room with a bowl of food...is this a definite sign that proprioception is taking place and in action?

Is this something if studied and delved into deeply that would greatly improve the game or just kind of be there like gravity to keep you grounded with the feet on the floor?

Earl has done some whacky things over the years. Do you think he and Efren know about this and have used it to up their games? I'm just trying to understand before sh*t canning it as useless information that isn't going anywhere for a benefit.

I think I may have come to a conclusion and decision. 10-9-8-7-6-5..........

 

[BC21]

So, in other words, if a person has 3 months of playing pool under their belt, they'll have the same level of proprioception regarding the game as you do. Is that correct?

Let's look at something as an example to see if we have this straight. You're over the CB lining it up with the OB to make what would be between a 1/2 ball and 3/4 ball cut using contact points. You begin fidgeting with the head going up and down, side to side like a lizard and the ass cheeks start going back and forth, side to side like a Beagle happy to see his owner coming into the room with a bowl of food...is this a definite sign that proprioception is taking place and in action?

Is this something if studied and delved into deeply that would greatly improve the game or just kind of be there like gravity to keep you grounded with the feet on the floor?

Earl has done some whacky things over the years. Do you think he and Efren know about this and have used it to up their games? I'm just trying to understand before sh*t canning it as useless information that isn't going anywhere for a benefit.

I think I may have come to a conclusion and decision. 10-9-8-7-6-5..........

That's funny stuff.

Knowing about proprioception is indeed useless. It's like knowing you can see or hear or touch. It's just another sense we have, and simply knowing that we have such a sense is of very little benefit.

I only brought it up to explain FEEL. When we feel like our body is positioned a certain way, that feeling is generated by little receptors in our muscles, tendons and skin. And the communication between all those receptors and the mind is called proprioception. And the more you repeat certain body positions (like aligning for a pool shot) the more accurate that sense (FEELING) becomes for that process.

 

[cookie man]

Hey Brian, its good to see you contributing to these aimless threads. Also happy to see discussion about proprioception - I mentioned this key, core concept in a few threads a while back that went nowhere. I think most folks think its new age alien stuff. Its core to everything, really… and IMO hugely beneficial concept to understand for pool, as stance and visualization are so connected to this game. Modern sports phycology is definitely absent from most technical pool discussions, and definitely appears to not be a part of the CTE world.

Does it make you feel COOL to take a pot shot at CTE at the end of your post?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

That's funny stuff.

Knowing about proprioception is indeed useless. It's like knowing you can see or hear or touch. It's just another sense we have, and simply knowing that we have such a sense is of very little benefit.

Is "COMMON" highly regarded and of more benefit than proprioception sense? (a GREAT word for a national high school spelling bee)

I only brought it up to explain FEEL. When we feel like our body is positioned a certain way, that feeling is generated by little receptors in our muscles, tendons and skin. And the communication between all those receptors and the mind is called proprioception. And the more you repeat certain body positions (like aligning for a pool shot) the more accurate that sense (FEELING) becomes for that process.

The more certain body positions are repeated (like aligning for a pool shot or golf shot) it might activate and ingrain that sense of (FEELING) alright, but it could very well be ingraining an incorrect alignment. You see it all the time in pool rooms and bars with tables and on golf courses and driving ranges. Some have no hope of executing good accurate shots consistently.

I guess there are two schools of thought regarding aligning for a pool shot. The body position leads when getting down into the shot with the eyes and head adjusted to the feet and torso, or the eyes lead which includes the alignment-aiming visuals of CB to OB with the body and feet following and falling into place.

 

[MajorMiscue]

The eyes lead which includes the alignment-aiming visuals of CB to OB with the body and feet following and falling into place.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The eyes lead which includes the alignment-aiming visuals of CB to OB with the body and feet following and falling into place.

Would you agree in doing it that way there should be no need to fidget, bob your head and eyeline from side to side or up and down in order to make "adjustments" to home in for a second or third check to see it more clearly and "guesstimate" it?
We do agree if this is the case.

 

[MajorMiscue]

I stand looking at the cb and ob, insert my cue on the line and step into the shot. No pivoting, fidgeting, bobbing, side to side, up and down, nada. just focus on the ob and stroke it into the pocket. No gimmicks required.

 

[BC21]

Is "COMMON" highly regarded and of more benefit than proprioception sense? (a GREAT word for a national high school spelling bee)

I guess there are two schools of thought regarding aligning for a pool shot. The body position leads when getting down into the shot with the eyes and head adjusted to the feet and torso, or the eyes lead which includes the alignment-aiming visuals of CB to OB with the body and feet following and falling into place.

I agree completely that the eyes lead and the body follows. Do it enough times and it becomes common, meaning the brain will automatically start getting the body into position as soon as you see a shot you recognize/know.

Unfortunately, "automatically" doesn't necessarily mean your subconscious brings up the correct body mechanics or position or alignment for the shot.

We consciously look at the shot and the subconscious automatically starts flipping through the pages of our mind to find a known program/network related to that shot (the body positioning and muscle memory needed to execute the shot). Sometimes it finds a perfect match, sometimes it doesn't. It's the conscious mind that ultimately makes the decision as to whether or not we are truly in tune with the shot, according to what we're seeing and feeling. That "feeling" is generated by our sense of proprioception.

Repeating a common task (body movements/mechanics) helps us develop the muscle memory involved for that task, which in turn strengthens our sense of proprioception. So, when that task comes up we'll have a better feel for it...we'll feel like we're in tune with it.

This sense of feel is always in play. We look at what needs to be done, then we get our body into the correct position to do it. But we can't see how our body is positioned, so we have to rely on the sense (feel) that everything is positioned correctly in accordance with what we're seeing.

So, sure, the eyes lead and the body follows, but knowing that the body followed correctly and accurately is a matter of sensory communication between the body and mind, better known as "feel".

 

[SpiderWebComm]

So sure, the eyes lead and the body follows, but knowing that the body followed correctly and accurately is a matter of sensory communication between the body and mind, better known as "feel".

Yeah, but there is an alternative way to speed the process up. A large number of pool players in general have to be one of the cheapest, stupidest, block headed group of people involved in a sport/activity when it comes to disregarding professional lessons and opting to be a "do it yourselfer". A trained eye of a good instructor can be the eyes that matter most whether it's a beginner, professional, and everyone in-between. Stan has given lessons to a large number of professional players and others AT all levels.

But he isn't the only one. There are a number of pro players that have excellent instructors as THEIR eyes for getting back in line and out of some bad habits that creep in.

It should be like golf. Pro players ALL have a professional instructor to keep them in line. Some of those instructors go from tournament to tournament with their player. Parents in today's world start taking their children to golf pros as early as possible and all throughout their childhood into college. It's important to "FEEL" the CORRECT way.

But pool..."NAH, it's not hard or complicated. I'll figure it out on my own."

 

[BC21]

Yeah, but there is an alternative way to speed the process up. A large number of pool players in general have to be one of the cheapest, stupidest, block headed group of people involved in a sport/activity when it comes to disregarding professional lessons and opting to be a "do it yourselfer". A trained eye of a good instructor can be the eyes that matter most whether it's a beginner, professional, and everyone in-between. Stan has given lessons to a large number of professional players and others AT all levels.

But he isn't the only one. There are a number of pro players that have excellent instructors as THEIR eyes for getting back in line and out of some bad habits that creep in.

It should be like golf. Pro players ALL have a professional instructor to keep them in line. Some of those instructors go from tournament to tournament with their player. Parents in today's world start taking their children to golf pros as early as possible and all throughout their childhood into college. It's important to "FEEL" the CORRECT way.

But pool..."NAH, it's not hard or complicated. I'll figure it out on my own."

You are so right! A lot of pool players are too proud or too stubborn to learn from anyone else. And many others who do happen to learn from a book or a video (or from a professional instructor), typically don't share that experience with others.

I have never understood why some people like for others to think they learned 100% on their own, through their own hard work and determination and sheer genius. I do believe that's possible, but with pool players it seems that no one wants to admit they had help somewhere along the way. And that's too bad. I know what has helped me could surely help others, so I enjoy sharing that info.

Locally, everyone knows I will help anyone with anything. And I don't blow smoke up anyone's ass. I mean, if I don't know how to do something or how to explain something, how in the world can I help someone else learn to do it?

It's important to give credit to all the people and resources that have helped us learn and understand things over the years. Humility is a good character trait. Unfortunately, many pool players are notoriously committed to a more ego-driven history when it comes to sharing how they learned to play the game.

Here's my best attitude advice for aspiring pool players, and for any player who wants to win more often: Your ego is your enemy.

 

[MajorMiscue]

Most are very open to constructive instruction and seek out productive content from the likes of Dr. Dave, Neils Feijen, Sharivari, Max Eberle and a host of others. They also watch videos of the pros in action. Who hasn't learned watching Efren and Earl along with many who are no longer with us but live on through their videos, Bugs Rucker for one.

What all these have in common is a lack of gimmickry or quick tip solutions (disregard Earls foibles he showed us how to spin the rock). None of them get down on a shot then pivot and twist, nada.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Most are very open to constructive instruction and seek out productive content from the likes of Dr. Dave, Neils Feijen, Sharivari, Max Eberle and a host of others. They also watch videos of the pros in action. Who hasn't learned watching Efren and Earl along with many who are no longer with us but live on through their videos, Bugs Rucker for one.

What all these have in common is a lack of gimmickry or quick tip solutions (disregard Earls foibles he showed us how to spin the rock). None of them get down on a shot then pivot and twist, nada.

What does Bustamante do when he sets up on the far left side of center and strikes it all over different spots on the CB?
It's called what? And what is your definition of gimmickry?

How about what is being illustrated here...do you think it's bogus? If so, why do the balls go in? Have you tried it as it's being taught and demonstrated? Btw, there's a PIVOT on each shot. Also btw, pro players and gamblers from a number of years back used what is called "backhand English". It was a PIVOT right at the transition of their backstroke and forward stroke that changed the cue angle coming into the ball for English AS WELL AS a different cue angle to pocket the ball. See video below.
He's doing it PRE-BACKSTROKE and they did it DURING the backstroke into forward. It should meet your definition of pivots and twisting but it works. Does he/they know something you don't?

 

[phreaticus]

Does it make you feel COOL to take a pot shot at CTE at the end of your post?

Easy chief. I’m a fan of CTE concepts and it wasn’t a pot shot, or being cool. You’re so preconditioned to conflict and vitriol, and apparently so hyper sensitive that you can’t process anything except your own repetitive babbling nonsense.

I simply stated a fact. Most pool players & instructors have no awareness of these visual/cognition concepts and/or that they can be further developed systematically - and I’ve never seen anyone from CTE participate in any coherent discussion on such things - as a group you guys seem allergic to such concepts, or really anything that didn’t originate from Hal or Stan. Spidey, who is apparently a chief evangelist of the movement, openly stated in the thread that he never heard of the word proprioception before Brian mentioned it.

None of which is a problem. In theory we are all here to learn & exchange ideas, right? I don’t think its really CTE that offends some people, but rather the sycophants like you that go on & on & on in these endless combative, preachy threads, generally yelling in all caps like teen age girls.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I agree completely that the eyes lead and the body follows. Do it enough times and it becomes common, meaning the brain will automatically start getting the body into position as soon as you see a shot you recognize/know.

Unfortunately, "automatically" doesn't necessarily mean your subconscious brings up the correct body mechanics or position or alignment for the shot.

We consciously look at the shot and the subconscious automatically starts flipping through the pages of our mind to find a known program/network related to that shot (the body positioning and muscle memory needed to execute the shot). Sometimes it finds a perfect match, sometimes it doesn't. It's the conscious mind that ultimately makes the decision as to whether or not we are truly in tune with the shot, according to what we're seeing and feeling. That "feeling" is generated by our sense of proprioception.

Repeating a common task (body movements/mechanics) helps us develop the muscle memory involved for that task, which in turn strengthens our sense of proprioception. So, when that task comes up we'll have a better feel for it...we'll feel like we're in tune with it.

This sense of feel is always in play. We look at what needs to be done, then we get our body into the correct position to do it. But we can't see how our body is positioned, so we have to rely on the sense (feel) that everything is positioned correctly in accordance with what we're seeing.

So, sure, the eyes lead and the body follows, but knowing that the body followed correctly and accurately is a matter of sensory communication between the body and mind, better known as "feel".

I'm not disputing feel, but how would this be categorized? It's like there isn't a millisecond for feel. It's more like trained, disciplined, memorized, practiced, precise, rapid motion for complete synchronization.

 

[BC21]

Most are very open to constructive instruction and seek out productive content from the likes of Dr. Dave, Neils Feijen, Sharivari, Max Eberle and a host of others. They also watch videos of the pros in action. Who hasn't learned watching Efren and Earl along with many who are no longer with us but live on through their videos, Bugs Rucker for one.

What all these have in common is a lack of gimmickry or quick tip solutions (disregard Earls foibles he showed us how to spin the rock). None of them get down on a shot then pivot and twist, nada.

I would guess that the vast majority of people over 30 yrs old who play pool have never paid for a private lesson or purchased a book or video to help improve their game. I'm using 30 because YouTube hit the net around 2006, so I'm talking about players that didn't grow up with free video lessons available online anytime they wanted.

Anyhow, there's a reason why the average pool book only sells about 5000 copies in 10 years, despite the fact that there are millions of people playing pool in the United States throughout countless bar rooms and pool halls.

Most of them are just bangers, and they'll be bangers for years to come. Only a small percentage ever have the desire and determination to be more than bangers. And of those who have that desire, many of them will invest in books and DVD's and watch youtube lessons and read posts here on AZ. Only a small percentage will seek out instructors for private lessons. The reason that percentage is small is because most players aren't willing to drive several hours to find an instructor, or aren't willing to pay $30 to $100 an hour for anything, regardless of how much it might benefit them. Let's face it, most pool players are cheap/frugal, especially as we get better at playing.

Seriously, the better we get the less money we're willing to spend. Lol. Don't believe me? Ask any pool room owner who spends the most money in their place. Chances are very good it won't be the A players.

 

[BC21]

I'm not disputing feel, but how would this be categorized? It's like there isn't a millisecond for feel. It's more like trained, disciplined, memorized, practiced, precise, rapid motion for complete synchronization.

That is awesome!

A great example of programmed muscle memory. Once it's programmed, through repetition, the "feel" process we're talking about occurs in mere microseconds. If one of those marines loses focus and allows other shit to enter the working area of his mind, he would not perform so well in perfect sync with the others.

 

[cookie man]

Easy chief. I’m a fan of CTE concepts and it wasn’t a pot shot, or being cool. You’re so preconditioned to conflict and vitriol, and apparently so hyper sensitive that you can’t process anything except your own repetitive babbling nonsense.

I simply stated a fact. Most pool players & instructors have no awareness of these visual/cognition concepts and/or that they can be further developed systematically - and I’ve never seen anyone from CTE participate in any coherent discussion on such things - as a group you guys seem allergic to such concepts, or really anything that didn’t originate from Hal or Stan. Spidey, who is apparently a chief evangelist of the movement, openly stated in the thread that he never heard of the word proprioception before Brian mentioned it.

None of which is a problem. In theory we are all here to learn & exchange ideas, right? I don’t think its really CTE that offends some people, but rather the sycophants like you that go on & on & on in these endless combative, preachy threads, generally yelling in all caps like teen age girls.

Whatever. I never heard of that word either. Why don’t you start a thread and educate everyone.
As for the other things, if the non users would educate themselves then there could be discussions about CTE. But they refuse to and just want to post like know it alls when then really know nothing about CTE.
Funny though how you seem to just blame the side that actually knows what they are talking about.

 

[phreaticus]

Whatever. I never heard of that word either. Why don’t you start a thread and educate everyone.
As for the other things, if the non users would educate themselves then there could be discussions about CTE. But they refuse to and just want to post like know it alls when then really know nothing about CTE.
Funny though how you seem to just blame the side that actually knows what they are talking about.

“blame the side that actually knows what they are talking about”.

You are apparently completely unaware that statements like that literally sound like an elementary kid. Who cares? Why do you get so worked up by some diilweed on the web that doesn’t think CTE works, or asks annoying questions? The only conclusion is that you are way too emotionally attached. This type of bizarre, self aggrandizing passion along with the mystical barn stores is part of what makes you guys look like a cult. I find myself wondering if Stan isn’t quietly cringing if he see any of these threads. Honestly the best thing you could possibly do for CTE, is just stop posting.

If it makes you feel any better, I have fun making fun of the idiots who argue endlessly with you also. Together, you guys all make up a little collection of AZB aiming thread nutters, that after 20 some years I think most normal people have just learned to ignore, very much like the NPR forum.

To be fair, the first post of this thread was useful, I’d never heard of the book “Aiming On The Cutting Edge" by Todd Leveck, it sounds interesting, I’ll look into it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

… if the non users would educate themselves then there could be discussions about CTE.

Or if you had enough confidence in your own knowledge of it to say more than

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Or if you had enough confidence in your own knowledge of it to say more than


pj
chgo

I have a better idea. Since you seem to know everything there is to know after 25 years of intense study, discuss and instruct how it's done.

And an even better idea than above would be for YOU to do a VIDEO while at the table and putting it into action.
We'll do everything we can to have you listed in the "Endorsed Instructors" list. Patrick "Tiny" Johnson

OK, now it's time for one of your inane witty responses throwing it back at either of us or in our court.