FEEL IN AIMING

[SpiderWebComm]

In your best interpretation of a professional pool player or professional instructor, PLEASE DEFINE FEEL IN AIMING.

What is it exactly? How is it used in the aiming process? How does it enhance or correct whatever aiming method or system you use?
Does feel work better for some aiming systems and not others? Can feel do more harm than good by sabotaging the aiming system
being used since feel was never factored into it when the system was created and tested? Can feel from one person to another be transferable and taught? Can feel be developed to a higher state and if so, how?

Remember, this has nothing to do with TOUCH/FEEL, meaning how soft or hard to strike the CB or stroke the cue. Only aiming.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In your best interpretation of a professional pool player or professional instructor, PLEASE DEFINE FEEL IN AIMING.

What is it exactly? How is it used in the aiming process? How does it enhance or correct whatever aiming method or system you use?
Does feel work better for some aiming systems and not others? Can feel do more harm than good by sabotaging the aiming system
being used since feel was never factored into it when the system was created and tested? Can feel from one person to another be transferable and taught? Can feel be developed to a higher state and if so, how?

Remember, this has nothing to do with TOUCH/FEEL, meaning how soft or hard to strike the CB or stroke the cue. Only aiming.

The world’s most unhinged ALL CAPS anti-feel crusader doesn’t know anything about it. Suddenly all this makes sense.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The world’s most unhinged ALL CAPS anti-feel crusader doesn’t know anything about it. Suddenly all this makes sense.

pj
chgo

Since YOU'RE the expert, fill the thread up with your Ph.D. knowledge about FEEL and how it allowed you to elevate yourself from a "D" player to the highest level of "C+" over the last 30 years.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Since YOU'RE the expert, fill the thread up with your Ph.D. knowledge about FEEL and how it allowed you to elevate yourself from a "D" player to the highest level of "C+" over the last 30 years.

It’s simple (much more basic than your questions suggest), and I and others have described it many times here. They all went right past you, huh?

It’s the one most fundamental universal aspect of aiming, no matter how you think you do it, and you don’t seem to believe it exists. If it doesn’t, then what’s so special about CTE?

Does Stan know about this new marketing tack?

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The world’s most unhinged ALL CAPS anti-feel crusader doesn’t know anything about it. Suddenly all this makes sense.

pj
chgo

You're exactly right. I don't know anything about feel when it applies to the aiming process. My way of playing is it's
ALL visual and trust the eyes since that's how aiming is done.

I also do something you don't because you're a hard-core woke Lib who's afraid of guns and don't want anyone else to have them.

I own guns and shoot them. The only time feel is involved is in a quick draw and fire scenario which isn't very accurate.
That's why all handguns and rifles have SIGHTS. You align your eyes, body and sights directly onto the target, hold it steady,
and pull the trigger. There is NO ADJUSTING and going back and forth with the eyes and head like a LIZARD. The sights and the eyes tell you exactly where you need to be just like any aiming system for pool.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Here's Pat "Anti-Feel" Johnson 24 years ago.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.billiard
From: Patrick Johnson <pjm...@concentric.net>
Date: 1998/12/08
Subject: Re: Aiming Technique
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author

Dale W. Baker wrote:

> David,

> If this method works for you, so be it. I don't believe there are too
> many players in this forum that will advocate such a method.

This variation on the "ghost ball" method of aiming is discussed fairly
frequently here, and I recall several posters being in favor of it. It
doesn't have a particularly bad reputation that I know of, though it's
not my preferred method because I like to aim more directly at the
object ball contact point.

> The aiming method should be by "feel". You get a sense for the target, and shoot.

I don't agree. It's true that many players aim by "feel," but that
doesn't mean that every player "should" aim this way. And how is
anybody supposed to follow these instructions? "Get a sense for the
target and shoot?" What does that mean to anybody but you? Is it like
"You'll know it when you see it?"

I think a player should have an idea of what he's aiming at, and what
he's aiming at it. For instance, I aim the contact point on the cue
ball (which I have to imagine, because it's on the other side of the cue
ball) at the contact point on the object ball. To help me do this
accurately, I aim the cue stick at the point it would be touching on the
"ghost ball" (this is the imaginary ball sitting in the spot the cue
ball will occupy when it hits the object ball) as if I was shooting the
same shot with the two balls frozen together. (Of course, I adjust all
this for the combined effect of squirt, swerve and throw).


By the way, this isn't a complicated calculation of some kind that I do
while I'm aiming. I just try to point something (my stick and the cue
ball) at something (the ghost ball and object ball), rather than just
"feel" it. It sounds like David's trying to do that, too, and I say
it's the right thing to try to do.


Pat Johnson
Chicago

 

[Patrick Johnson]

That's why all handguns and rifles have SIGHTS. You align your eyes, body and sights directly onto the target, hold it steady,
and pull the trigger. There is NO ADJUSTING and going back and forth with the eyes and head like a LIZARD. The sights and the eyes tell you exactly where you need to be just like any aiming system for pool.

So you think aiming a round ball at another round ball to create a specific cut angle out of maybe 25 or 50 with your eyes above the stick is like aligning the sights of a rifle and a target with your eyes on the same level.

Wow. That explains most posts you’ve ever made here. Thanks for clearing that up.

What system do you use for shooting a rifle?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here's Pat "Anti-Feel" Johnson 24 years ago.

I didn’t say I was “anti-feel” - I said I didn’t think only feel was the best way to learn.

I’ve come around a little on that over the past 24 years - we live and learn. Try it!

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

So you think aiming a round ball at another round ball to create a specific cut angle out of maybe 25 or 50 with your eyes above the stick is like aligning the sights of a rifle and a target with your eyes on the same level.

There's a target (pocket), front sight (specific spot on OB), rear sight (in our case edge and center of CB)
You use CONTACT POINTS on each ball. Two invisibles but you still use them.

Wow. That explains most posts you’ve ever made here. Thanks for clearing that up.

What system do you use for shooting a rifle?

Are you a friggin' moron? The same as a handgun. The rear and front sight of the rifle. Sometimes a powerfully magnified scope with crosshairs on the target with other rifles.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I didn’t say I was “anti-feel” - I said I didn’t think only feel was the best way to learn.

Really? Where?

I’ve come around a little on that over the past 24 years - we live and learn. Try it!

pj
chgo

No, in your case you got more stupid. What you did learn is that "FEEL" was the main bullshit talking point you could
use against CTE because of your hatred for it, its creators, and users. That's all you have going for you and it's BOGUS.

And man, does it ever frost your old, wrinkled ass to no ends since you view yourself as one of the greatest minds in the history of the Earth. Hey Genius...YOU LOST!!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Are you a friggin' moron?

I must be to have played moron a moron with you for so long. But you’ve finally made the pointlessness of trying to communicate with you clear. Bye.

pj <- a cheer goes up from the crowd
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I must be to have played moron a moron with you for so long. But you’ve finally made the pointlessness of trying to communicate with you clear. Bye.

pj <- a cheer goes up from the crowd

Actually, it's a ROAR! PJ, GONE!!
I'll bet you break your promise. You're too screwed in the head after all these years to keep it. The only question is, how
long will it take before you start getting the shakes and tremors to get back on the keyboard?

 

[BC21]

I think this could be a good beneficial thread for a lot of people. Of course that wasn't the intention or reason the thread was started. But it's here, so I'll add my share:

"Feel" is knowing when you're ready to pull the trigger. It is the fulcrum between vision and mind, between what we see and what we think (consciously and subconsciously).

1...We look at a task that needs to be done. 2...We align the necessary body parts to get it done. 3...We put those body parts in motion to execute the task.

"Feel" is that point between steps 2 and 3 when we know our body parts are lined up correctly in accordance with what we're seeing. This applies to lining up and aiming when shooting a gun, hitting a baseball or golf ball or tennis ball, throwing a ball, catching a ball, shooting pool, etc... The list is endless.

The communication between vision and mind is a combination of conscious and subconscious processes. When we consciously look at something, our subconscious immediately sends known information to the conscious working area of the mind. Then we have to decide whether or not this information fits or works with what we're seeing. In other words, we think... .

Sometimes it might take a few seconds. The conscious mind might be saying, "No...that's not quite right", and this triggers the subconscious to immediately offer up an alternative, and again we consciously work with that in the working area of the mind.

For tasks that we've successfully done thousands of times, this dance between conscious and subconscious thought only takes a microsecond or zeptosecond. And as long as the conscious mind isn't distracted, the execution or performance of the task will be good.

For any task that we're just learning how to do, or task that we haven't successfully repeated enough times to develop dependable consistency, our performance will be inconsistent because we simply haven't developed good muscle memory for the task. We might feel like we're lined up correctly in accordance with what we're seeing, but in reality we're off a little bit and just don't realize it. Or maybe we feel like we're off a little bit but we're really spot on and don't realize it.

After we've performed the task successfully enough times to develop the proper muscle memory, we become pretty consistent. If we "feel" like we're lined up with what we're seeing, we probably are.

This type of "feel" is used with every task. It's simply a part of how our mind and vision work together. Initially, with any task, our feel isn't very accurate. But experience improves it, so much so that eventually we no longer realize we're doing it.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think this could be a good beneficial thread for a lot of people. Of course that wasn't the intention or reason the thread was started. But it's here, so I'll add my share:

"Feel" is knowing when you're ready to pull the trigger. It is the fulcrum between vision and mind, between what we see and what we think (consciously and subconsciously).

In most cases when discussed with pool, "Feel" has to do with linking the CB to OB to begin with, especially when there is nothing on both balls to link together other than imagination. IMAGINING = FEEL. GUESSING = FEEL. INDECISION = FEEL.

There are no visible contact points, no visible fractions, no arrows. I never got proficient with "lights and reflections" because I just never knew what to look for and link up. At least they're visible. But I've been around some guys over the years that shot "lights out" (haha) with it. I don't see it the way you described about knowing when you're ready to pull the trigger. You either SEE it or you don't. If you're off, move until you SEE it CLEARLY and DECISIVELY.

1...We look at a task that needs to be done. 2...We align the necessary body parts to get it done. 3...We put those body parts in motion to execute the task.

"Feel" is that point between steps 2 and 3 when we know our body parts are lined up correctly in accordance with what we're seeing. This applies to lining up and aiming when shooting a gun,

You're giving an extremely broad definition to "Feel" that's totally unnecessary. The visible back sight, front sight, and target is all in line or it ISN'T. Your vision and brain tell you that immediately.

hitting a baseball or golf ball or tennis ball, throwing a ball, catching a ball,

None of which has anything to do with aiming for pool. That's all active or dynamic motion in action. Coupled with developed hand/eye coordination.

pool, etc... The list is endless.

You forgot the kitchen sink

The communication between vision and mind is a combination of conscious and subconscious processes. When we consciously look at something, our subconscious immediately sends known information to the conscious working area of the mind. Then we have to decide whether or not this information fits or works with what we're seeing. In other words, we think... .

Sometimes it might take a few seconds. The conscious mind might be saying, "No...that's not quite right", and this triggers the subconscious to immediately offer up an alternative, and again we consciously work with that in the working area of the mind.

For tasks that we've successfully done thousands of times, this dance between conscious and subconscious thought only takes a microsecond or zeptosecond. And as long as the conscious mind isn't distracted, the execution or performance of the task will be good.

For any task that we're just learning how to do, or task that we haven't successfully repeated enough times to develop dependable consistency, our performance will be inconsistent because we simply haven't developed good muscle memory for the task. We might feel like we're lined up correctly in accordance with what we're seeing, but in reality we're off a little bit and just don't realize it. Or maybe we feel like we're off a little bit but we're really spot on and don't realize it.

After we've performed the task successfully enough times to develop the proper muscle memory, we become pretty consistent. If we "feel" like we're lined up with what we're seeing, we probably are.

This type of "feel" is used with every task. It's simply a part of how our mind and vision work together. Initially, with any task, our feel isn't very accurate. But experience improves it, so much so that eventually we no longer realize we're using it.

All great for a mumbo jumbo psychological thriller but overkill. It's also not how "Feel" is used and described by the ones squawking about it on pool forums for 25 years. Fact is, the main player squawking about how it must be used is the same person who argued how it shouldn't be used and had no place in the aiming process until he realized he couldn't say that to undermine his new mission of destroying CTE. That's when everything changed.

When all of you "feel" players can knock off all the PRO players who use CTE for every shot they take, can beat Landon and Stan, can win tournaments, are NOT afraid to play for heavy stakes using "feel" I'll listen. Btw, who got the upper hand between you and Cookie? Feel vs. CTE?

 

[BC21]

In most cases when discussed with pool, "Feel" has to do with linking the CB to OB to begin with, especially when there is nothing on both balls to link together other than imagination. IMAGINING = FEEL. GUESSING = FEEL.

There are no visible contact points, no visible fractions, no arrows. I never got proficient with "lights and reflections" because I just never knew what to look for and link up. At least they're visible. But I've been around some guys over the years that shot "lights out" (haha) with it. I don't see it the way you described about knowing when you're ready to pull the trigger. You either SEE it or you don't. If you're off, move until you SEE it CLEARLY and DECISIVELY.

Ok....how do you know when you're off and need to move? How do you know when you see it clearly and decisively?

The answer is.... You recognize it based on experience. You "feel" like what you're looking at is correct, based on all the other times you've looked at it.

You're giving an extremely broad definition to "Feel" that's totally unnecessary. The visible back sight, front sight, and target is all in line or it ISN'T. Your vision and brain tell you that immediately.

None of which has anything to do with aiming for pool.

When throwing a baseball or a football, we aren't looking at our arm or our hand. We feel whether or not these body parts are where they should be to accomplish the task (proprioception). Same goes with pool - we don't see our grip hand. We only see the bridge hand and the shaft of the cue, which might be enough to ensure the cue is lined up correctly for the shot, but at the same time we are aware of where our grip hand (the butt of the cue) is positioned in space. This awareness is "feel"(proprioception). It's how we are able to physically aligning our body to what we're seeing when aiming pool shots.

You forgot the kitchen sink

All great for a mumbo jumbo psychological thriller but overkill. It's also not how "Feel" is used and described by the ones squawking about it on pool forums for 25 years. Fact is, the main player squawking about how it must be used is the same person who argued how it shouldn't be used and had no place in the aiming process until he realized he couldn't say that to undermine his new mission of destroying CTE. That's when everything changed.

When all of you "feel" players can knock off all the PRO players who use CTE for every shot they take, can beat Landon and Stan, can win tournaments, are NOT afraid to play for heavy stakes using "feel" I'll listen. Btw, who got the upper hand between you and Cookie? Feel vs. CTE?

Cookie and I didn't play very well. We missed quite a few shots and fumbled good opportunities. We talked more than we played, and aiming was definitely not a main topic. He beat me by a couple of games in 9ball. I think we raced until someone's coin made it all the way around the table. I'm pretty sure he was 2 games ahead. But like I said, the way we played wasn't much to bragg about.

He started playing very well when we switched to one pocket - less talking, more focus. I believe he clobbered me in one pocket. Anyway, I was definitely not in prime condition to play solid pool that afternoon....lol. Hungover, sleep-deprived, and starving.

I wish I had played better pool that day, but I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. And that was to see what kind of person this Cookie dude was outside of AZ. And, as I suspected, I found him to be a pretty likable guy.

Can't wait to make it back down there and play some more, but at a different place. Lol. They had no food. They had beer but you could only buy it to go, couldn't drink it in the place. Cookie bought me a coke and a snickers bar. I left there and met back up with my girlfriend. She asked how it went and I told her, "Well, I played like shit. But he's a pretty cool guy." Then we went back to the condo to eat and take a nap!

 

[MajorMiscue]

When throwing a baseball or a football, we aren't looking at our arm or our hand. We feel whether or not these body parts are where they should be to accomplish the task (proprioception).

In traditional archery this is called "instinctive shooting" the arrow is aligned under the dominant eye and the gap between arrow tip and target is critical but none of this is consciously considered. The bow is drawn and shot in one motion.

Pool is much the same. You shoot thousands of shots and the intricate computer that is our brain compares this shot with the stored data from all the previous shots and provides the aiming solution. I often play my best when I spend the least amount of time thinking and allow the computer to do the work. It's seen this shot before. Allow it to function with as little interference as possible.

Try it. Just relax and allow the brain to concentrate without your interference.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Ok....how do you know when you're off and need to move? How do you know when you see it clearly and decisively?

The answer is.... You recognize it based on experience. You "feel" like what you're looking at is correct, based on all the other times you've looked at it.

Nope. It usually has to do with not lining up the body correctly to what you're seeking. It's outta whack. Now THAT is FEEL!

Cookie and I didn't play very well. We missed quite a few shots and fumbled good opportunities. We talked more than we played, and aiming was definitely not a main topic. He beat me by a couple of games in 9ball. I think we raced until someone's coin made it all the way around the table. I'm pretty sure he was 2 games ahead. But like I said, the way we played wasn't much to bragg about.

He started playing very well when we switched to one pocket - less talking, more focus. I believe he clobbered me in one pocket. Anyway, I was definitely not in prime condition to play solid pool that afternoon....lol. Hungover, sleep-deprived, and starving.

I wish I had played better pool that day, but I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. And that was to see what kind of person this Cookie dude was outside of AZ. And, as I suspected, I found him to be a pretty likable guy.

Can't wait to make it back down there and play some more, but at a different place. Lol. They had no food. They had beer but you could only buy it to go, couldn't drink it in the place. Cookie bought me a coke and a snickers bar. I left there and met back up with my girlfriend. She asked how it went and I told her, "Well, I played like shit. But he's a pretty cool guy." Then we went back to the condo to eat and take a nap!

Glad the two of you had a good time and came away with a like and respect for each other. But I think your next goal to really test yourself is to enter the US Amateur Championship and go up against the top players in the country and see where you rank.

Cookie has finished 10th and I think 15th in the US Amateur. (maybe 13th). That ain't easy to do and takes a lot of skill. He did it with CTE as his method of aiming. He IS a CERTIFIED CTE Instructor. The highest you can achieve.

Brian Parks is the winningest player in the history of the US Amateur Championship with 4 victories and the ones he didn't win were extremely high finishes. He IS a CTE user and ENDORSED CTE Instructor.

Your turn next.

As far as what we're going back and forth on in this thread, it definitely isn't our first rodeo because we've done it a number of times and gotten nowhere.

What I can't understand is how you've put all the time into creating an aiming system, poolology, that you've touted and others being the most mathematically and geometrically perfect system out there using fractions and the rail diamonds as aim points or calculations, and neither you nor they consistently use it! Why? Because you've stated once you learn it the visual lineups are no longer necessary because you can then just aim by FEEL. Well, hell, once you cut loose with that declaration you were designated as the Grand Master in the history of pool aiming by the anti-cte "feel argument" users like PJ, Dan, and the short list and short lived posters who come and go.

So, you can save your time and so can I because until YOU USE your own system that DOESN'T require feel and geometrically pure guidelines, this subject is OVER. I do enjoy your thoughts and posts in other areas and don't see you in the same negative light as some others, but this FEEL shit is OVER for me and you and the time it takes to do it.

 

[BC21]

........

What I can't understand is how you've put all the time into creating an aiming system, poolology, that you've touted and others being the most mathematically and geometrically perfect system out there using fractions and the rail diamonds as aim points or calculations, and neither you nor they consistently use it! Why? Because you've stated once you learn it the visual lineups are no longer necessary because you can then just aim by FEEL.
.....

With CTE the visuals are right there in sight, using the cb edges and center and specific references on the ob. With Poolology the visuals are right there in sight, using cb center and specific references on or just outside the edge of the ob.

There are just a few more visual reference lines to consider with Poolology. But narrowing any shot down to just 3 options isn't difficult. Just about any shot can be made using one of the 1/8 aim references or a touch thinner or thicker. With CTE you have 3 or 4 sets of visual reference lines (perceptions), then each of those perceptions offer two possible shot choices - thicker or thinner (outside or inside sweep).

Like you, I don't believe there's much feel, if any at all, in the visual part of aiming, unless the player is just guessing where to aim, pointing the cue until it feels right instead of starting with the eyes. So when I talk about playing with feel, I'm referring to getting the body and stroke aligned accurately with what we're seeing. To me, that is part of aiming - positioning our body to aim the cue so it will send the cb to where it needs to go, based on our visual knowledge/awareness.

Eventually the player just recognizes the cb-ob relationships and the body falls into place, bringing the cue in where it needs to be without having to consciously position everything. It's how you and Cookie sweep into your shots automatically after you recognize the proper perception.

Do you not believe the same thing can happen with fractional aiming or contact point aiming or ghostball? I believe it can. It's all about visual experience and a developed feel of how your body and cue are aligned.

 

[straightline]

I own guns and shoot them. The only time feel is involved is in a quick draw and fire scenario which isn't very accurate.
That's why all handguns and rifles have SIGHTS. You align your eyes, body and sights directly onto the target, hold it steady,
and pull the trigger. There is NO ADJUSTING and going back and forth with the eyes and head like a LIZARD. The sights and the eyes tell you exactly where you need to be just like any aiming system for pool.

The gun analogy as you state it is incorrect. The sights are to give the shooter a means to align THE GUN. Pool doesn't work that way.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

With CTE the visuals are right there in sight, using the cb edges and center and specific references on the ob. With Poolology the visuals are right there in sight, using cb center and specific references on or just outside the edge of the ob.

Yeah, but why is that so hard and next to impossible to get that across to all the naysayer know-it-alls who do nothing but try to tear something down? Pretty sick, huh?

Like you, I don't believe there's much feel, if any at all, in the visual part of aiming, unless the player is just guessing where to aim, pointing the cue until it feels right instead of starting with the eyes.

We have a BINGO!

So when I talk about playing with feel, I'm referring to getting the body and stroke aligned accurately with what we're seeing. To me, that is part of aiming - positioning our body to aim the cue so it will send the cb to where it needs to go, based on our visual knowledge/awareness.

That's why Stan has taught it from the beginning with: "The eyes lead, and the body follows."

Eventually the player just recognizes the cb-ob relationships and the body falls into place, bringing the cue in where it needs to be without having to consciously position everything. It's how you and Cookie sweep into your shots automatically after you recognize the proper perception.

Again, it all starts with the eyes from a standing position. Not go down with the body and start looking with the eyes.

Do you not believe the same thing can happen with fractional aiming or contact point aiming or ghostball? I believe it can. It's all about visual experience and a developed feel of how your body and cue are aligned.

I would imagine it could. But have you ever seen anyone do it or being taught that way? I can't say that I have nor used it like that when I was using contact point aiming. I looked at the OB contact point and went down from there because I knew where the equal and opposite spot on the CB was supposed to be but still did some fine tuning when down. However, never to the point of looking like a lizard. LMAO