So what now ?

[sjm]

what would you do as a return if your frozen on the backside of the 6?

Against a strong opponent, I'd leave it there, barely touching it with my cue, forcing opponent to either scratch back or shoot the fifteen from something worse than the original position.

This is why this tactic won't work. If the kick at the fifteen is in your comfort zone, shoot it immediately as you've got some space for bridging that could potentially disappear. Otherwise, you're probably heading for three fouls here against a capable opponent, just as Bob Jewett has suggested.

Post corrected/revised because I got mixed up, LOL

 

[alphadog]

So you guys can see why I say cinch the ball.

 

[Bob Jewett]

So you guys can see why I say cinch the ball. ...

Hmmm. Well in that case, try the shot Stu suggested where you roll the cue ball up-table where the only shots are combinations or kicks or fairly hard but not impossible safes. The reason to do this is your opponent can't roll you back onto the 6 for his foul unless he has Efrenesque speed control, so he has to basically pass the shot or try a hard shot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

No player will forego a return foul in that position other than a super-weak one, and against a super-weak player, I'll happily concede the rail-first fifteen ball.
...

The problem is that we seem to have great shooters who have no idea about safety play. Not the slightest idea as in not even knowing the rules. We have both seen such players in tournaments. I think it's good to test the depth of those particular waters if you don't know your opponent well.

In the league I played in pre-Covid there were lots of players who shot reasonably well but would make glaring safety errors. I often played the "wrong" but easy safety knowing that the response would be weak.

 

[sjm]

The problem is that we seem to have great shooters who have no idea about safety play. Not the slightest idea as in not even knowing the rules. We have both seen such players in tournaments. I think it's good to test the depth of those particular waters if you don't know your opponent well.

In the league I played in pre-Covid there were lots of players who shot reasonably well but would make glaring safety errors. I often played the "wrong" but easy safety knowing that the response would be weak.

You and I have discussed this, Bob, and we're on the same page, but on this forum, I'll never endorse a "try this in case your opponent is clueless" approach when that approach may come with a cost. If it's cost free, fine, but even then, a plan for how to handle it if opponent doesn't do something silly must be in place before a shot is selected.

In this layout, against a strong player, the immediate choice is probably between risking the kick in of the fifteen or taking three. If you've already decided on taking three, tapping up to the six costs nothing, and maybe once in a while opponent will do something ridiculous, but if you're OK with trying to kick in the fifteen, you shouldn't afford a tactically sound opponent a chance to make you shoot it from frozen to the six, so you should consider shooting it now.

If the declining handful of confirmed old schoolers on this planet, like you and me, who know all the 14.1 defensive tactical theory because we were around the pro scene during the straight pool era, are to be of value to those who ask what the right defensive tactics are, we need to explain what the best options are against players who know what they're doing. If we don't, we forego an opportunity to ever so slightly restore straight pool defensive science to where it was in the golden age.

By 2000, it was already true that few of the top players knew most of the defensive tactics, but today, almost nobody knows them. Nothing has accelerated the death of superior tactical play more than the emphasis on exhibition runs over tournament play, and there's great reason to believe that, in the short-term, the trend will continue. Tournament straight pool in America is very close to dead, and the relative absence of defensive threads on AZB continues to evidence that all most players care about is high runs.

 

[soyale]

You and I have discussed this, Bob, and we're on the same page, but on this forum, I'll never endorse a "try this in case your opponent is clueless" approach when that approach may come with a cost. If it's cost free, fine, but even then, a plan for how to handle it if opponent doesn't do something silly must be in place before a shot is selected.

In this layout, against a strong player, the immediate choice is probably between risking the kick in of the fifteen or taking three. If you've already decided on taking three, tapping up to the six costs nothing, and maybe once in a while opponent will do something ridiculous, but if you're OK with trying to kick in the fifteen, you shouldn't afford a tactically sound opponent a chance to make you shoot it from frozen to the six, so you should consider shooting it now.

If the declining handful of confirmed old schoolers on this planet, like you and me, who know all the 14.1 defensive tactical theory because we were around the pro scene during the straight pool era, are to be of value to those who ask what the right defensive tactics are, we need to explain what the best options are against players who know what they're doing. If we don't, we forego an opportunity to ever so slightly restore straight pool defensive science to where it was in the golden age.

By 2000, it was already true that few of the top players knew most of the defensive tactics, but today, almost nobody knows them. Nothing has accelerated the death of superior tactical play more than the emphasis on exhibition runs over tournament play, and there's great reason to believe that, in the short-term, the trend will continue. Tournament straight pool in America is very close to dead, and the relative absence of defensive threads on AZB continues to evidence that all most players care about is high runs.

id like to offer that perhaps straight pool is just tougher to match up for. anybody can try high runs by themselves and post their results…. but finding somebody close to your speed can be tough, and playing somebody sufficiently above your speed to the point of being able to learn from them can be rare and excruciating.

if you shoot 6 or 7 balls average and your opponent shoots 28, you might observe a thing or two in between your rack practice but you wont be shooting much, and your still paying table time to sit in the chair.

what im trying to say is that perhaps we don’t hear about defensive play as much because almost nobody gets a chance to employ it these days, rather than because of high runs or lack of interest.

just guessing, though. i’m one of those guys that loves 14.1 but can’t play for shit. anybody that is good enough to have wound up in a spot where taking 3 fouls is the right move is so far out of my league that we would never play.

 

[sjm]

id like to offer that perhaps straight pool is just tougher to match up for. anybody can try high runs by themselves and post their results…. but finding somebody close to your speed can be tough, and playing somebody sufficiently above your speed to the point of being able to learn from them can be rare and excruciating.

if you shoot 6 or 7 balls average and your opponent shoots 28, you might observe a thing or two in between your rack practice but you wont be shooting much, and your still paying table time to sit in the chair.

what im trying to say is that perhaps we don’t hear about defensive play as much because almost nobody gets a chance to employ it these days, rather than because of high runs or lack of interest.

just guessing, though. i’m one of those guys that loves 14.1 but can’t play for shit. anybody that is good enough to have wound up in a spot where taking 3 fouls is the right move is so far out of my league that we would never play.

There's much truth in this post. Well said.

 

[DynoDan]

id like to offer that perhaps straight pool is just tougher to match up for. anybody can try high runs by themselves and post their results…. but finding somebody close to your speed can be tough, and playing somebody sufficiently above your speed to the point of being able to learn from them can be rare and excruciating.

if you shoot 6 or 7 balls average and your opponent shoots 28, you might observe a thing or two in between your rack practice but you wont be shooting much, and your still paying table time to sit in the chair.

what im trying to say is that perhaps we don’t hear about defensive play as much because almost nobody gets a chance to employ it these days, rather than because of high runs or lack of interest.

just guessing, though. i’m one of those guys that loves 14.1 but can’t play for shit. anybody that is good enough to have wound up in a spot where taking 3 fouls is the right move is so far out of my league that we would never play.

I used to have a regular opponent, that luckily for me, refused to gamble (100 ball runner). I gladly paid my half of the table time, since playing him was definitely a learning experience, and the challenge encouraged me to occasionally beat him. Playing half-hearted lesser players who are not genuine 14.1 enthusiasts provide no benefit these days, so I empathize.