Are these fundamentals solid?

GentlemanJames said:
Today, I would seriously doubt anyone would teach those fundamentals; but, don't ever be fooled by an older guy who stands like that; because I was.

One afternoon 30 years ago in the early 90s, I was jonesing for some action, and the room where I occasionally played at night was just dead when I walked in.

I'd never been in this room in the daytime, and none of the regular gamblers where there, and only about 3 Seniors and a couple of teenagers. So, I decided I'd sit at the counter for a while, and see if anyone showed and eat a hot dog while I waited.

As I chopped on my hot dog at the counter, I lamented to the girl working the counter about the lack of getting an afternoon game of 9 Ball or One Pocket. She told me what I already knew about coming back at night; and then, she steered me to one of the old guys - of which I am now in 2022 a member of in good standing in the old guy club, by the way - but, she told me: "He ONLY plays Rotation and he never plays anybody for more than $5 a rack, he won't raise, and, if he gets down $20, he'll quit you immediately... so you might not want to bother to play him.".

I eyed the old guy's play over from the counter, and he was putting them down pretty well; but, watching the way he moved, aimed(?), and stood mostly straight up (like in Willie's pic) looked totally crazy/casual to me.

He sort of moved like Fats in that he would just waddle up to a shot, no address, didn't seem to even aim, lots of one-stroking them in, rarely had to reach for anything, and they were all pretty easy shots - the 'all easy shots' part SHOULD have been my first warning sign (older and wiser now) - so, I figured what the heck, I'll have a little fun horsing-around and let the old guy buy me a tank of gas without screwing-up his 'fixed income, retired old guy' short-pants bankroll.

Yeah.

Bottom line, that old guy who stood nearly straight-up, didn't seem to bother to aim, waddled around the table, rarely missed or ended up on the rail or hook himself, seemed to always get the right roll, and could bank like crazy or could kick out of a trap like a mule when I could leave him in trouble.

He had opened my nose for a VERY fast $50 bucks before I quit him.

When I went back up to the counter to pay my time, I asked the girl: "Who was that old guy?"; and she said: "Oh, Bennie... yeah, he's not pretty to watch, but he can bank."

That was one expensive hot dog. - GJ
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As you know now, got to watch out for old people! Old and cunning sometimes beats youth and vigor. Then we crawl back into our web and gloat over it! I recently played my niece for a few hours, no bet of course. I thought I was pretty gentle until a few days later she commented that I had sure kicked her butt! Guess I wasn't as gentle as I thought. One thing, I automatically got on a nine foot table which she might not have been used to. I did let her buy me lunch when she thought I couldn't backcut a ball. I will be sure I buy next time though, no bet involved.

iusedtoberich said:
And here is Ray Martin at age 74 running balls, with a lower stance than what he has in his book when he was much younger. More and more evidence that the old time players and the modern players really were quite close to each other in their stances. AND, that their books did not necessarily reflect their actual play.
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I think it is Ray Martin's book, I might be mistaken but even in a book created quite some time back the photographs tell a story. The author had pictures illustrating various things. In the one showing his stance, the stance was considerably different than the stance he used when illustrating other things. I don't think this was deliberate, more a matter of what people think they do compared to what they do. I walked down a line of 48 benchrest shooters. I am sure at least 45 of them would claim they shot in the popular, almost universal, free recoil style. Three of them actually were!

Back to pool, a "level cue" has long been pretty much universally endorsed. However, looking at old photographs and video will reveal that players typically had four to six inches of elevation in the back of the cue even when there were no obstructions and they could get far lower. I think it was because they often had to use this much elevation and they had gotten used to how the cue ball performed with the cue stick at that elevation.

Another interesting thing, Only one or two of the top pro's endorsed looking at the cue ball last. However, looking at video it was plain that many of them switched their eyes to the cue ball on the final stroke! I observed this about ten years ago, I doubt it has changed. Just one of those things that many aren't aware they do.

I found the same in several other fields of competition. When reading or listening to advice it needs to be tempered by the realization that what the person is endorsing may not be what they do! There have been a lot of surprised people since video has became more common.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Back to pool, a "level cue" has long been pretty much universally endorsed. However, looking at old photographs and video will reveal that players typically had four to six inches of elevation in the back of the cue even when there were no obstructions and they could get far lower.
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^THIS ^ I have seen ^THIS^ so many times in my life, and I cannot count the number of hours I spent as a student of both books, and then much later VHS tapes, trying to figure out WHY the illustrated diagrams would show a perfectly horizontal cue, or the top video instructors would be talking about "an absolutely dead-level cue", and yet, just as you wrote, in the photos or later in video action, the butt of the cues would regularly be elevated as much as 12.25 - 22.5 Degrees!

Back in the late 70s, Dad arranged a private lesson for me with a 'name' player for my birthday. During the lesson he also preached on and on about a "perfectly level cue", BUT, once again, I observed that same old infuriating contradiction of the instructions NOT being the same as what I saw with my eyes.

Of course, I was too polite/intimidated/star-struck to point-out and question why this was so, when the butt of his cue was clearly NOT "perfectly-level".

But, when he had me demonstrate for him - I was physically copying his cue position exactly as he had just shown me on the same practice shot - he suddenly reached out and pushed down on the butt of my cue, and says: "No, no... It's got to be L-E-V-E-L, and you're way up in the air!"; and then, shooting from this 'adjusted position', I couldn't draw for beans.

He then says, "You'll get it, it just takes dedication and practice.", and then, proceeds to draw the cue ball back up the table like it has a little secret motor inside the ball, AND NOT WITH a "perfectly level" cue.

That's when I first learned that everybody in pool is crazy. - GJ
 
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GentlemanJames said:
^THIS ^ I have seen ^THIS^ so many times in my life, and I cannot count the number of hours I spent as a student of both books, and then much later VHS tapes, trying to figure out WHY the illustrated diagrams would show a perfectly horizontal cue, or the top video instructors would be talking about "an absolutely dead-level cue", and yet, just as you wrote, in the photos or later in video action, the butt of the cues would regularly be elevated as much as 12.25 - 22.5 Degrees!

Back in the late 70s, Dad arranged a private lesson for me with a 'name' player for my birthday. During the lesson he also preached on and on about a "perfectly level cue", BUT, once again, I observed that same old infuriating contradiction of the instructions NOT being the same as what I saw with my eyes.

Of course, I was too polite/intimidated/star-struck to point-out and question why this was so, when the butt of his cue was clearly NOT "perfectly-level".

But, when he had me demonstrate for him - I was physically copying his cue position exactly as he had just shown me on the same practice shot - he suddenly reached out and pushed down on the butt of my cue, and says: "No, no... It's got to be L-E-V-E-L, and you're way up in the air!"; and then, shooting from this 'adjusted position', I couldn't draw for beans.

He then says, "You'll get it, it just takes dedication and practice.", and then, proceeds to draw the cue ball back up the table like it has a little secret motor inside the ball, AND NOT WITH a "perfectly level" cue.

That's when I first learned that everybody in pool is crazy. - GJ
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I put enough hours into my pool hall degree to get a PhD when I thought about it. Kinda bummed me out when I first thought about it but then I considered I was low six figures ahead from playing pool and it didn't seem so bad! Not that much of that money stuck with me. For some reason I had an idea that fun money was different than real money and I just used it for keeping score, throwing most of it away later.

I knew a person who was a totally worthless individual, he hustled his own brother once or twice a year and was involved in I think every form of petty crime known to man. He was also a gambler, poker, dice, pool, whatever. He cheated at all of it! I said something about gambling money not seeming the same as real money and I think I stung him a little bit. He pulled a healthy roll out of his pocket. "I made all of this gambling. I can buy gas with it, buy groceries, pay the rent and utilities. What is different about it from the money in your pocket?" I thought about it and couldn't find a difference, once I made it out of a pool room. I did have gambling money and real money but I got better about letting gambling money migrate across the fence when I had plenty.

I did figure out one thing. We don't have to be crazy to play decent pool, but it helps!

Hu
 
If you think Mosconi couldn't cut it in today's pool world... Riddle me this

Why did it take 30 Years after his death for anyone to break his high run record?

A bar set so high that some people belive his record still stands, and video to the contrary is a hoax??
 
xradarx said:
Great question that will go unanswered, as long as the Mosconi526 exists.
Mosconi526 will be the known record until someone equals or exceeds that number,
using the same size table believed to be an oversized 4x8 Brunswick, the same set of balls, and one(1) attempt to equal or exceed 526 balls pocketed without a miss or foul.
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nah, jayson shaw has the record. and filler could beat it if he wanted to.

whether some autist will try to achieve a pointless high-run on a weird old 8ft and with 60 year old balls is a question that remains unanswered
 
ShootingArts said:
There was a lot to adapt to every hall you went to in Willie's day. Today, you go into a nice hall with AC or heater keeping the temperature and humidity right and step up to a well manicured Diamond table.

When I think about it, only the Filipinos and no doubt a few others in similar countries move from hall to hall faced with all kinds of conditions when learning, maybe worse than those Willie faced much of the time coming up. I think one secret of the Filipino success is the speed at which they adapt to conditions. Considering that, I think Willie would adjust to today's conditions like a duck taking to water!

The play that amazed me, Willie had the cue ball on a string. If you had a dime sized piece of paper you could have laid it on the table where he was shooting shape for and if the cue ball didn't stop there it would be withing a few inches. Most of the time the cue ball would have shaded that paper, some part of the cue ball being over it!

Worth remembering that Willie held over fifteen world championships. He also wasn't shy about gambling until contracts with corporate sponsors forbade it. Fats could get under Willie's skin like perhaps nobody else in the world could. They were supposed to be filming one of the made for TV things when Willie lost it, something implied or stated about not having the courage to gamble best I recall. Willie threw a fat wallet on the table and said "the hell with the show and the taping, let's go right now!"

That isn't word for word but it was the gist of what Willie said. I think it was Charlie Ursitti who calmed Willie down. Speaking of Charlie, he tells a story in this phone interview starting at about the six minute mark of breaking the balls for Willie and leaving him very tough. Willie shot something out of the stack from in the jaws of a pocket, crossbanked it, and he was off! Willie stopped once for coffee, once for a sandwich, and this is the run that might be called unfinished or deliberately finished. Willie fired the break ball in without attempting to break anything out after saying he was tired. The run was 589 on a standard nine foot Brunswick in 1979. Willie was 66 at the time and that is reaching pretty solidly into the modern era.

Charlie Ursitti was a friend of Willie's, he was also one of the most respected men in pool. I don't think he would tell a silly lie that if found to be a lie could harm his reputation or Willie's legacy.

Charlie is obviously a believer when it comes to Willie Mosconi. There is a funny story in this too but I don't want to spoil it for those wanting to watch the interview. Thirty minutes long total phone interview with Ursitti. Thirty-one and change if you are picky! Almost all about Willie including how Charlie thinks he would fair against today's players, or those of a few years back now.

Hu

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Call shot 9 Ball) Had several old timmers on this forum tell me, There never was call shot 9 ball... Who to believe... Guy
 
Tin Man said:
BBB is spot on.

Asking who would win in 9 ball between Mosconi and Filler is like asking who would win at golf between Mickey Mantel and Tiger Woods.
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Or Ali & Tyson

Same thing

The world shall forever wonder
 
measureman said:
Most of you are too young to have seen Willie in person.
I played him an exhibition match in 1964 and I really was no threat to him.
But to see how smooth he was in person and how easy he ran racks was really something.
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I'm glad you got to do that with Willie, In 1964 I thought that I could beat Willie, Only a thought, Took three more years before I even met him, Then he put on an exhibition where I worked and I never got to talk to him... Yes he was my idol one time... Here we are old... Guy
 
GentlemanJames said:
^THIS ^ I have seen ^THIS^ so many times in my life, and I cannot count the number of hours I spent as a student of both books, and then much later VHS tapes, trying to figure out WHY the illustrated diagrams would show a perfectly horizontal cue, or the top video instructors would be talking about "an absolutely dead-level cue", and yet, just as you wrote, in the photos or later in video action, the butt of the cues would regularly be elevated as much as 12.25 - 22.5 Degrees!

Back in the late 70s, Dad arranged a private lesson for me with a 'name' player for my birthday. During the lesson he also preached on and on about a "perfectly level cue", BUT, once again, I observed that same old infuriating contradiction of the instructions NOT being the same as what I saw with my eyes.

Of course, I was too polite/intimidated/star-struck to point-out and question why this was so, when the butt of his cue was clearly NOT "perfectly-level".

But, when he had me demonstrate for him - I was physically copying his cue position exactly as he had just shown me on the same practice shot - he suddenly reached out and pushed down on the butt of my cue, and says: "No, no... It's got to be L-E-V-E-L, and you're way up in the air!"; and then, shooting from this 'adjusted position', I couldn't draw for beans.

He then says, "You'll get it, it just takes dedication and practice.", and then, proceeds to draw the cue ball back up the table like it has a little secret motor inside the ball, AND NOT WITH a "perfectly level" cue.

That's when I first learned that everybody in pool is crazy. - GJ
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Do as I say, not as I do:)

Same thing for "don't drop your elbow", and same thing for "play center ball as much as possible".
 
well i was around in those days and played with some of them. they as most became more upright as they got older. smart thing to do if you dont want back problems.

we played on very slow tables with dirty balls. and you had to have a great stroke to get good. now the tables are fast and rooms have air conditioning to maintain a basically constant system. so strokes have changed as you dont need to force the ball around.
just to compare. making two balls on the break in nine ball was not a very common thing.
i am talking in general conditions not the exceptions.

top players then did comparable things as those now in comparison.

there were many less top players as most pool was in just one country. and houses were small then and no room for a pool table. so to get good you had to have access to free pool someplace or be in action all the time. which wasnt common enough.
 
xradarx said:
Great question that will go unanswered, as long as the Mosconi526 exists.
Mosconi526 will be the known record until someone equals or exceeds that number,
using the same size table believed to be an oversized 4x8 Brunswick, the same set of balls, and one(1) attempt to equal or exceed 526 balls pocketed without a miss or foul.
Click to expand...
One attempt? Mosconi played straight pool full time for 40 years!

I get it. He was at an exhibition and they asked him to continue that one run. I get it. But to say someone gets one attempt to beat his run is a little bit of a misrepresentation.

And I know "Players back in his day didn't go for high runs, they quit once the game was over". But they still had their pride. Trust me, they knew what each other's high runs were. Besides, to answer the original question about why it took so long for someone to beat the record it's for the same reason. Players back then didn't go for high runs because it didn't pay anything after the game was won. Well, players in the 60s-2000s had no reason to play straight pool either for the same reason. Not only was there no money for a high run, it wasn't even the game of choice anymore.

Big respect for Mosconi. He mastered his game and took it to another level, under the financial pressure of the great depression and the competitive pressure of grinding world championship opponents that could eliminate him if he hit the wrong ball off just a hair. He is a legend and there is a reason he will always be hailed as king of his era.

I simply think his accomplishments and resume stand well enough on their own not to squint at them to make them look better.
 
no one is squinting to make mosconi's anything to look better. more are trying to make it look less, so the present players look like they are doing something that he couldnt ever do.

if he could run 500 plus balls during an exhibition he could run many more getting on a setup table with new polished balls being cleaned at anytime and with a week of tries.
 
Tin Man said:
One attempt? Mosconi played straight pool full time for 40 years!

I get it. He was at an exhibition and they asked him to continue that one run. I get it. But to say someone gets one attempt to beat his run is a little bit of a misrepresentation.

And I know "Players back in his day didn't go for high runs, they quit once the game was over". But they still had their pride. Trust me, they knew what each other's high runs were. Besides, to answer the original question about why it took so long for someone to beat the record it's for the same reason. Players back then didn't go for high runs because it didn't pay anything after the game was won. Well, players in the 60s-2000s had no reason to play straight pool either for the same reason. Not only was there no money for a high run, it wasn't even the game of choice anymore.

Big respect for Mosconi. He mastered his game and took it to another level, under the financial pressure of the great depression and the competitive pressure of grinding world championship opponents that could eliminate him if he hit the wrong ball off just a hair. He is a legend and there is a reason he will always be hailed as king of his era.

I simply think his accomplishments and resume stand well enough on their own not to squint at them to make them look better.
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Will the real Mr. Willie Mosconi, Great Artist and Champion of Pocket Billiards, Please stand up... Guy
 
I have a question for you older boys that saw Mosconi play in person. Was he faster than Shaw?

Was he faster than Luc Salvas?

I always heard he was super fast and ran around the table backwards.
 
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