D Appleton is against pivoting for spin ?

Patrick Johnson said:
A traditional wrist position and straight stroke can create any desired tip direction at contact. So what’s the advantage of non-traditional?

By the way, I think pronate/supinate mean to rotate your forearm (like turning a key). Maybe you mean “tuck” and “cock”?

pj
chgo
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No, you have it correctly--a rotated forearm. Of the six possible wrist movements, supination and pronation are actually the forearm rotating the hand and wrist, as you know. There's an advantage to be gained.

Imagine I face a wall straight on and hold two cues, one in each hand, atop the other, one hand pronated, one supinated. The cues now make an "X" shape in front of me, instead of parallel to my body at my sides, like "I I".

If I move my arms holding the diagonally turned cues forward, I am bringing the whole X-shape forward and the tips of the X straight into the wall. The center of the X is moving straight forward, the tips of the cues are moving parallel to the center of the X. Once you are able to visualize the X moving straight up and down (seen from above) into the wall, you understand the alternative motion of the backhand stroke. And it may be practiced without any arcing at all.

Use the "X" move at the table, starting with a straight backstroke from a stance and aim taken at center cue ball. To eliminate any arcing stroke, simply pause at the end of the backstroke, slightly pronate or supinate, then move the forearm forward again. You are moving the cue tip forward with half of the X shape or /, thus . . .

Pool Diagrams - Simplfied Backhand English.JPG

. . . with supination for a right-handed player, the forearm can stroke A-B while the tip's direction at contact is C-D.

Note I will strike the cue ball at C with neither a straight stroke through C-E (traditional english) nor a straight parallel stroke through C-D ("parallel english"). A cue tip turned diagonally to the shot line is striking C in the direction of D at impact.

You can thus aim and stroke at the geometric contact point in the shot below, but with a diagonally turned cue stick. Instead of rolling one rail to X after impact at cue ball hit C with a traditional english stroke the cue ball may be struck at C but roll to a spot between X and Y after striking the long rail. All the way to Y, of course, has the cue ball contacting the rail rather close to the side pocket.

Capture.JPG
 
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BilliardsAbout said:
No, you have it correctly--a rotated forearm. Of the six possible wrist movements, supination and pronation are actually the forearm rotating the hand and wrist, as you know. There's an advantage to be gained.

Imagine I face a wall straight on and hold two cues, one in each hand, atop the other, one hand pronated, one supinated. The cues now make an "X" shape in front of me, instead of parallel to my body at my sides, like "I I".

If I move my arms holding the diagonally turned cues forward, I am bringing the whole X-shape forward and the tips of the X straight into the wall. The center of the X is moving straight forward, the tips of the cues are moving parallel to the center of the X. Once you are able to visualize the X moving straight up and down (seen from above) into the wall, you understand the alternative motion of the backhand stroke. And it may be practiced without any arcing at all.

Use the "X" move at the table, starting with a straight backstroke from a stance and aim taken at center cue ball. To eliminate any arcing stroke, simply pause at the end of the backstroke, slightly pronate or supinate, then move the forearm forward again. You are moving the cue tip forward with half of the X shape or /, thus . . .

View attachment 662537
. . . with supination for a right-handed player, the forearm can stroke A-B while the tip's direction at contact is C-D.

Note I will strike the cue ball at C with neither a straight stroke through C-E (traditional english) nor a straight parallel stroke through C-D ("parallel english"). A cue tip turned diagonally to the shot line is striking C in the direction of D at impact.

You can thus aim and stroke at the geometric contact point in the shot below, but with a diagonally turned cue stick. Instead of rolling one rail to X after impact at cue ball hit C with a traditional english stroke the cue ball may be struck at C but roll to a spot between X and Y after striking the long rail. All the way to Y, of course, has the cue ball contacting the rail rather close to the side pocket.

View attachment 662538
Click to expand...
1)if you start with the cue sticks in each hand and start out with both pointed straight ahead
to make an X both arms would have to pronate
i may not understand your begining statements because if one arm pronates and the other supinates the cues will not make an X
2 ) to pronate or supinate the cue stick (rotate your forearm) while down on the table would require the stick leaving your bridge hand and be unsupported
if i understand what you are saying correctly
 
BilliardsAbout said:
No, you have it correctly--a rotated forearm. Of the six possible wrist movements, supination and pronation are actually the forearm rotating the hand and wrist, as you know. There's an advantage to be gained.

Imagine I face a wall straight on and hold two cues, one in each hand, atop the other, one hand pronated, one supinated. The cues now make an "X" shape in front of me, instead of parallel to my body at my sides, like "I I".
Click to expand...
Actually, if you supinate one (turn the palm to face upward) and pronate the other (turn the palm to face downward), the sticks will remain parallel. Here's a diagram so we can be sure we're on the same terminology page:

supinate-pronate.jpg

BilliardsAbout said:
If I move my arms holding the diagonally turned cues forward, I am bringing the whole X-shape forward and the tips of the X straight into the wall. The center of the X is moving straight forward, the tips of the cues are moving parallel to the center of the X.
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So, you start with the A-B alignment and then "do something" with the wrist to point the tip toward the intended tip/ball contact point. That angles the cue ("pivots" it at the bridge) across the A-B line and the only way to move the whole cue forward without changing its angle even more during the stroke would be to slide the bridge hand forward with it. I'm sure you don't mean that, so we're still misunderstanding each other.

pj
chgo
 
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bbb said:
1)if you start with the cue sticks in each hand and start out with both pointed straight ahead
to make an X both arms would have to pronate
i may not understand your begining statements because if one arm pronates and the other supinates the cues will not make an X
2 ) to pronate or supinate the cue stick (rotate your forearm) while down on the table would require the stick leaving your bridge hand and be unsupported
if i understand what you are saying correctly
Click to expand...
lol

I just posted the same points.

pj <- grating minds
chgo
 
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bbb said:
1)if you start with the cue sticks in each hand and start out with both pointed straight ahead
to make an X both arms would have to pronate
i may not understand your begining statements because if one arm pronates and the other supinates the cues will not make an X
2 ) to pronate or supinate the cue stick (rotate your forearm) while down on the table would require the stick leaving your bridge hand and be unsupported
if i understand what you are saying correctly
Click to expand...
Thank you for the correction. Double pronation is correct.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Actually, if you supinate one (turn the palm to face upward) and pronate the other (turn the palm to face downward), the sticks will remain parallel. Here's a diagram so we can be sure we're on the same terminology page:

View attachment 662540

So, you start with the A-B alignment and then "do something" with the wrist to point the tip toward the intended tip/ball contact point. That angles the cue ("pivots" it at the bridge) across the A-B line and the only way to move the whole cue forward without changing its angle even more during the stroke would be to slide the bridge hand forward with it. I'm sure you don't mean that, so we're still misunderstanding each other.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Thank you for the diagram. In your diagram, neutral position holds a cue pointed at the ceiling. Starting with a typical wrist for a pool stroke and the cue pointed ahead of the body instead of upward, pronation adds left hand english for a right-handed pool shooter.

A tiny wrist supination adds, say, one tip of right english, the supinated wrist four feet or more from the cue's tip. I always have a bit of space and freedom in my bridge loop so I can make this stroke with a closed or open bridge without moving the bridge hand. If your bridge hand moves with the shot, start with perhaps soft strokes and a 5" bridge instead of an 11" bridge distance.


We agree. English with tip direction at impact C-E, or "parallel english" with tip direction C-D below, the only variable being tip direction at impact, creates different cue ball paths:

english.JPG

parallel.JPG



The third stroke uses a diagonally turned cue thrust forward, the arm stroking A-B, the cue tip at impact moving toward C-D and not C-E as in the classic english stroke. A third cue ball path? Or do you think it will match stroke 1 or 2's path as above?

backhand.JPG
 
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BilliardsAbout said:
Thank you for the diagram. In your diagram, neutral position holds a cue pointed at the ceiling. Starting with a typical wrist for a pool stroke and the cue pointed ahead of the body instead of upward, pronation adds left hand english for a right-handed pool shooter.

A tiny wrist supination adds, say, one tip of right english, the supinated wrist four feet or more from the cue's tip. I always have a bit of space and freedom in my bridge loop so I can make this stroke with a closed or open bridge without moving the bridge hand. If your bridge hand moves with the shot, start with perhaps soft strokes and a 5" bridge instead of an 11" bridge distance.


We agree. English with tip direction at impact C-E, or "parallel english" with tip direction C-D below, the only variable being tip direction at impact, creates different cue ball paths:

View attachment 662629
View attachment 662630


The third stroke uses a diagonally turned cue thrust forward, the arm stroking A-B, the cue tip at impact moving toward C-D and not C-E as in the classic english stroke. A third cue ball path? Or do you think it will match stroke 1 or 2's path as above?

View attachment 662631
Click to expand...

The 3rd cb path should match the 2nd, only not as much force on impact, so the cb speed will be slower.

From the cb's perspective, the only thing that matters is the mass and speed and direction of the force acting on it (the cue tip contacting the ball). It doesn't matter if the cue is moving in a straight line from butt to tip (normal stroke) or if the cue is angled yet moving in the same direction (like shot 3 in your diagram). The resulting cb direction will be the same, only there will be less speed with the angled cue because the weight of the cue isn't directly in line with the tip movement at contact.
 
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BC21 said:
The 3rd cb path should match the 2nd, only not as much force on impact, so the cb speed will be slower.

From the cb's perspective, the only thing that matters is the mass and speed and direction of the force acting on it (the cue tip contacting the ball). It doesn't matter if the cue is moving in a straight line from butt to tip (normal stroke) or if the cue is angled yet moving in the same direction (like shot 3 in your diagram). The resulting cb direction will be the same, only there will be less speed with the angled cue because the weight of the cue isn't directly in line with the tip movement at contact.
Click to expand...
Have you shot these kinds of strokes?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
To each his own, I guess, but I don't think it happens as you imagine it, and I'd never try to do it myself or recommend it, much less teach it.

pj
chgo
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I wanted to confine the discussion to a non-arcing stroke to begin, and the straight pronate-or-supinate-and-stroke I've diagrammed is awkward to execute, but I teach variants including subtle arcing strokes to students at clinics--a real eye-opener. Students love it.

I'm having a meal with Tom Kennedy on Thursday. He's one of the pros I've discussed this with and he calls it "returning all to the center", for example, you cue/stance with english yet return the cue tip to line up with center cue ball on your backstroke, then come straight on until your tip is about a ghost ball from the cue ball and then--flick.

For another example, Buddy Hall strove to strike the cb with the top of his cue tip. The obs seem to pickup good topspin this way, which helps them find the pocket bottoms (like putting golf balls above their equator with a putter so they hold their line and tend to fall in the hole instead of lipping out). A good way to try it--take a regular stroke and then add a small amount of ulnar wrist deviation as your tip approaches the cue ball.

I like a little flick of english on some shots but am not comfortable with the top-of-the-tip flick--when I do the top-of-tip move, though, the balls slam into the pockets Cornbread Red style. Pretty cool.

And yes, the arcing strokes have limited use. The pros I know who use them will spin balls in using parallel or classic english strokes, too.
 
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BilliardsAbout said:
Have you shot these kinds of strokes?
Click to expand...

I'm sure I've shot about every stroke imaginable. But just from looking at the diagrams and reading your descriptions, shots 2 and 3 would produce the same cb path. It's basic physics.

However, if you're saying in shot #3 that the cue is moving straight (moving along the A-B path) and then the tip gets swooped to the right just before contacting the cb, then that's different. The result (tip impact with cb) would have two directional vectors - one moving forward into the cb and one moving laterally across the cb. The resulting cb path would be different than #2. It would a be combination of those two directional forces.

However, that same path could also be created with a normal straight stroke applying just the right amount of speed and spin and striking the cb in a particular place. That's all I'm saying, that nothing special happens with a swooping or sideways flick of the cue during tip impact. The same cb path can be accomplished using a normal stroke, depending on where you strike the cb.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think they only add complication for no actual gain. I still haven't heard what you think they do for you that a straight stroke can't.

But thanks for the civil conversation about it.

pj
chgo
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It's not just arcing strokes. I've told students who struggle with draw "address center cue ball, now elevate the stroke hand slightly, now take a regular center cb stroke, no wrist snap, no forceful acceleration, just a regular stroke, which will feel a little different due to the elevated cue and the top of the tip striking the cue ball a bit below center cb".

When you see a student beaming or near tears because they've fixed their draw in moments, after struggling with draw for 20 years . . . you accept all the more that some will benefit from non-traditional strokes.
 
BC21 said:
I'm sure I've shot about every stroke imaginable. But just from looking at the diagrams and reading your descriptions, shots 2 and 3 would produce the same cb path. It's basic physics.

However, if you're saying in shot #3 that the cue is moving straight (moving along the A-B path) and then the tip gets swooped to the right just before contacting the cb, then that's different. The result (tip impact with cb) would have two directional vectors - one moving forward into the cb and one moving laterally across the cb. The resulting cb path would be different than #2. It would a be combination of those two directional forces.

However, that same path could also be created with a normal straight stroke applying just the right amount of speed and spin and striking the cb in a particular place. That's all I'm saying, that nothing special happens with a swooping or sideways flick of the cue during tip impact. The same cb path can be accomplished using a normal stroke, depending on where you strike the cb.
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Precisely. The C-E stroke is going along a diagonal to the shot line, the slight swoop (the butt hand moves a tiny amount to create a tip of english) has a cue going tip going forward quite fast with a fraction of that speed vectoring laterally and the cue ball spins well. I've described it as spinning a globe on its stand rather than punching the globe so that it and the stand topple to the floor.

I'm glad Dr. Dave et al have debunked the arm swoop strokes, but I'm having lunch or dinner tomorrow with Tom Kennedy, who like quite a few pros, often uses swoop english from wrist moves.

And I do agree with you, you can make the same plays with classic english strokes, but some players execute the swoops more easily. And IMHO the best pool teachers do not force all students to learn everything exactly the same without tailoring for individuals.

For an experiment, set up a hanger ball as in my diagram and strive for a center cb hit or nearly so, but allow your wrist to supinate a tiny amount as if you want to hit center cb but with the left side of your tip rather than the dead center of your cue tip. Soft strokes at first. Students LOVE this stroke.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
"Dr. Dave et al have debunked the arm swoop strokes, but I'm having lunch or dinner tomorrow with Tom Kennedy, who like quite a few pros, often uses swoop english from wrist moves."
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I think Dr Dave proved quite nicely that swooping is not gaining anything. Whether wrist or arm is pretty much immaterial. Do you intend to demonstrate the superiority of "wrist swoop"?
 
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